GOEX Closing

[Bat-mite]

Well, my local store is OUT!

 

[cerving]

Not non pyro, flex pyro. My Balls rocket used 0.25g of BP total for both events. It would have worked with BP, pyrodex or smokeless. My last can of BP is good for the next 2000 flights or so

I use Triple Seven... much cleaner, and doesn't stink. You do have to contain it, but I've been doing it for 10 years so I know how to do it. What is the advantage of mixing BP with other propellants? Easier ignition?

 

[jderimig]

I

I use Triple Seven... much cleaner, and doesn't stink. You do have to contain it, but I've been doing it for 10 years so I know how to do it. What is the advantage of mixing BP with other propellants? Easier ignition?

I didn't mean to suggest that. Just pick one, figure how to get it working, then stick to it .

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Start hoarding now.

Anyone ever make meal BP for use (do not post how)? Any reason why it will not work or is it too fine?

It is a simple thing to granulate hot meal powder to any size range particles you want. Regularly hotter than Goex that goes for reproducibility vs maximum speed. Key is the charcoal and mixing degree. Material considerations, not including time and milling apparatus/media, are about $3/pound. $4 if you're too lazy to make your own charcoal. No pressing/corning to high density necessary for ejection charges (though important for reloading cartridges where volume is more of a consideration).

 

[Ez2cDave]

Smokeless Powder burn rates . . . ( Hodgdon, 2012 )

Dave F.

 

[heada]

Real question is where can I get some of this Whaling grade BP? 4.75mm grain size!!

Besides for when I use my bow mounted harpoon, I would like to use it for an ejection charge in an Estes Alpha III.

Powder Grade	Mesh Size	Average Size in mm.
Whaling	4 mesh	4.750 mm. (0.187 in.)

When making my own granulated BP, I start with 1/2 pound wetted ball and run that through a 4 mesh screen onto kraft paper and let that mostly dry. It is then re-granulated on a 20 mesh screen and screened to get the desired grain sizes. 4 mesh BP looks cool but is not really useful for anything. Maybe very large cannon? Think the navy wants some for their 16in guns?

 

[NateB]

I use 4 mesh for pulverone, but that's more for structural purposes than gas production.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Not that it makes sense, but the "g" stands for "sporting grade," i.e., what you want to put in a musket. There is also an "a", which is "blasting grade." Go figure.

The number of F's stand for fineness. Like -v, -vv and -vvv in Linux, F is "fine", with the more F's being the more fine.

The "g" in Fg stands for graphite. https://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2016/07/black-powder-iv-powder-grain-sizes.html A small amount is rolled atop BP granules intended for firearms use--it aids in granule flow, smooths the surfaces a bit, but also acts as a burn opacifier to achieve a uniform through-the-grain flamefront vs burning from outside to core. This is critical when small quantities are used for precision applications, like shooting a projectile. Not so much when you're blasting bags of FA by the truckload.

Getting uniform quality/functioning BP is not as difficult as some experience. Entirely dependent on charcoal and technique. And smaller batches can be combined to provide years' worth of known-quality BP if you're just using it for ejection charges. Any size range you want. And if no binders (e.g., dextrin) are added, any fines can be regranulated or added into another batch. The stuff keeps pretty much forever so long as you protect it from humidity/moisture. It's a simple thing to recreate Fg, FFg, FFFg, or FFFFg, to even tighter size specs than commercial sporting Fg. And for those who have never tried, 3Fg can stand in for 4Fg for ejection in a pinch; if you look at the tables you'll see significant granule size overlap. Though the burn rate will be slightly slower, the total gas production/volume will be identical for the same mass. Ground tests might have you upping the charge mass with 3Fg a few % to suit your liking. Though 4Fg is rocketry standard, that's as much historical as science-based, and 3Fg can be adapted for pretty much any application.

Right now a lot is unknown. Humans tend to read more into announcements than what the words actually say. The actual words of the press release simply said that the Goex facility at Camp Minden is being closed. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the entire Goex line is being abandoned. But what it does mean is probably only known to management and may not be finalized.
I don’t know where Hodgdon manufactures Pyrodex. If it’s made at another facility then maybe it would not be affected.

Hodgdon bought Goex awhile back. Per it's history page, the Louisiana plant is the only BP manufacturer in the US. Hodgdon's HQ is in Kansas (and a magazine and production facility--obviously not GOEX BP). They also picked up IMR somewhere along the way, and I've used their smokeless. Label says it's made in Canada. Pretty sure they also bought up Aliant... Go figure. https://hodgdon.com/company/about-us/

 

[Wayco]

WOW! Did this thread just go viral? I posted a source for BP this morning and 45 posts later I know more than anybody needs to know about black powder.
One thing for sure, if there is enough demand, and a profit can be made, there will always be more. Pretty sure we won't be running out of it any time soon.
Can I mention that it's been around for over 1000 years? Please, I don't really need to know the history.....

 

[Bat-mite]

WOW! Did this thread just go viral? I posted a source for BP this morning and 45 posts later I know more than anybody needs to know about black powder.
One thing for sure, if there is enough demand, and a profit can be made, there will always be more. Pretty sure we won't be running out of it any time soon.
Can I mention that it's been around for over 1000 years? Please, I don't really need to know the history.....

I'll bet there isn't enough demand from rocketeers. Battle reenactments, Williamsburg, and muzzle-loading hunters make up the primary market. Has that market dwindled? Has COVID put enough of a damper on things so as to reduce demand?

 

[Steve Shannon]

I'll bet there isn't enough demand from rocketeers. Battle reenactments, Williamsburg, and muzzle-loading hunters make up the primary market. Has that market dwindled? Has COVID put enough of a damper on things so as to reduce demand?

Gary Rosenfield commented on Facebook that he thought the annual market for black powder for rocket motors is between 60,000 lbs to 70,000 lbs.
Professional fireworks are probably a very large use of BP as well as other energetic materials used for lift charges. The show for Independence Day here was over 2000 shells this year and I suspect that it is small compared to others. A company like Pyrotechnico probably is tracking this development closely.
Then there are the cannon and anvil shooting events!

 

[cerving]

I

I didn't mean to suggest that. Just pick one, figure how to get it working, then stick to it .

Ah... that was before you posted your other thread.

 

[Bat-mite]

Gary Rosenfield commented on Facebook that he thought the annual market for black powder for rocket motors is between 60,000 lbs to 70,000 lbs.
Professional fireworks are probably a very large use of BP as well as other energetic materials used for lift charges. The show for Independence Day here was over 2000 shells this year and I suspect that it is small compared to others. A company like Pyrotechnico probably is tracking this development closely.
Then there are the cannon and anvil shooting events!

Good to know.

So, does anyone know WHY Goex is closing its plant?

 

[NateB]

Good to know.

So, does anyone know WHY Goex is closing its plant?

Did it ever reopen after the latest fire?

https://www.ktbs.com/news/goex-fire...cle_f712606e-d055-11eb-94c7-5798136e079b.html

 

[Peartree]

Gary Rosenfield commented on Facebook that he thought the annual market for black powder for rocket motors is between 60,000 lbs to 70,000 lbs.
Professional fireworks are probably a very large use of BP as well as other energetic materials used for lift charges. The show for Independence Day here was over 2000 shells this year and I suspect that it is small compared to others. A company like Pyrotechnico probably is tracking this development closely.
Then there are the cannon and anvil shooting events!

And don't forget all the hunters during primitive weapons season and muzzleloader seasons.

 

[mtnmanak]

Did it ever reopen after the latest fire?

https://www.ktbs.com/news/goex-fire...cle_f712606e-d055-11eb-94c7-5798136e079b.html

No idea if it reopened, but it was reported that the fire was caused by 1000 pounds of BP exploding. That would probably put a heck of a dent in their facility.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

You guys got me all paniced. I headed out after lunch to try to find some black powder. Bass Pro/Cabella's doesn't carry it, only Pyrodex or substiture. I found a gun range that had some. Gee whiz the price has gone up since I last bought some! I actually shoot black powder, Hawkin rifle in both percussion and flintlock, and .45 Colt cartridges. I got a pound each of FFg, FFFg ,and FFFFg. I should be set for a while, but I may have to transition over to a substitute. This means recalibrating everything because the new stuff is guaranteed NOT to shoot to the same point-of-aim.

 

[TheTank]

You guys got me all paniced. I headed out after lunch to try to find some black powder. Bass Pro/Cabella's doesn't see it, only Pyrodex or substiture. I found a gun range that had some. Gee whiz the price has gone up since I last bought some! I actually shoot black powder, Hawkin rifle in both percussion and flintlock, and .45 Colt cartridges. I got a pound each of FFg, FFFg ,and FFFFg. I should be set for a while, but I may have to transition over to a substitute. This means recalibrating everything because the new stuff is guaranteed NOT to shoot to the same point-of-aim.

No joke! Bought two pounds a couple months ago… 22$ a pound… got 2 more today… 32$/pound. But at least I have it as i primarily only fly dual deploy.

 

[tsmith1315]

No one around here has had BP for ages.

I was planning to pick up a can from our vendor at the next launch, but with this frenzy he'll be empty by then!

 

[Richard Dierking]

This is probably going to turn into one of the self-fulfilling prophecies, like the rice storage that occurred because some people speculated that there could be rice shortages. So, stock up on BP and TP immediately!
Actually, human tendency I guess to panic buy. I got a bit freaked out when Steve mentioned potential scarcity of Pyrodex.

Anyway, again, there is plenty of BP for rocketry (insignificant percentage of the whole). Really, why should everyone have so much?
I've sorted trash at large rocketry launches pulling out plastic bottles for recycling and there was always a bunch of BP in the little vials that people discarded. Each club should develop a system of sharing black powder and maybe even a method to give or sell small quantities when necessary. Let's be logical, careful, and share!

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Powderinc.com is out of Goex, does have the Swiss powder.

 

[cwbullet]

I though about buying more, but I probably have enough.

 

[Michael L]

Powder Valley is out of all BP but Buffalo Arms is still good for now.

 

[Steve Shannon]

This is probably going to turn into one of the self-fulfilling prophecies, like the rice storage that occurred because some people speculated that there could be rice shortages. So, stock up on BP and TP immediately!
Actually, human tendency I guess to panic buy. I got a bit freaked out when Steve mentioned potential scarcity of Pyrodex.

Anyway, again, there is plenty of BP for rocketry (insignificant percentage of the whole). Really, why should everyone have so much?
I've sorted trash at large rocketry launches pulling out plastic bottles for recycling and there was always a bunch of BP in the little vials that people discarded. Each club should develop a system of sharing black powder and maybe even a method to give or sell small quantities when necessary. Let's be logical, careful, and share!

If you mean me, I didn’t say there might be a shortage of Pyrodex. I said I didn’t know where it’s produced. Personally I doubt anything other than BP will have production problems. Unfortunately, all things firearm related have been in high demand during this pandemic, but that’s something different.

 

[Richard Dierking]

No, just starting wondering when you mentioned it. It is really the only thing I use for airstarts and don't have much of.
So, sorry about my poor interpretation of your comments.

 

[Steve Shannon]

No, just starting wondering when you mentioned it. It is really the only thing I use for airstarts and don't have much of.
So, sorry about my poor interpretation of your comments.

No problem. I just wanted to be clear.

 

[cwbullet]

Air starts may be a good place for another compound. There are compounds that light easy and burn longer.

 

[Jim Hinton]

I use Triple Seven... much cleaner, and doesn't stink. You do have to contain it, but I've been doing it for 10 years so I know how to do it. What is the advantage of mixing BP with other propellants? Easier ignition?

Containing the powder doesn't seem that tough. I always use wadding and tape on my charges now. I make sure that there is no free space. When you use Triple 7 as a substitute powder, does it seem roughly weight equivalent? Does 5 grams of Triple7 have the same effect as 5 grams of 4f? This seems like an issue that could require experimentation. Thanks for your help, Ordering 5 pounds of 4 f and paying the expensive shipping seems the only viable alternative at the moment.

Jim

 

[JackC]

Making BP is easy. Making BP that gives an exact result, consistently, is not so easy. I make 10+ pounds per year but for rocketry, I still have a 1pound can of GOEX 4Fg that I use.

Damn right! If Captain Kirk can eyeball it on a deserted planet and use it in a bamboo cannon to defeat a Gorn, measuring the chemicals at home without a big lizard trying to kill you has to be a piece of cake!

 

[beeblebrox]

I ordered from Buffalo Arms two days ago, 5 lbs of 4F Swiss. Called today to ask a question, they are now completely out of all brands and grain sizes....