German Motors

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by Oliver
Roy, I talked about this issue several times directly with Weco. The decision was made around December 2004 (when Weco took over Sachsen Feuerwerk finally). I cannot comment the business relations between Quest and Weco in a public forum, but as a result, Quest has now another manufacturer. If I remember correctly, it was even mentioned on the Quest webpage a while ago.

However, Quest or some distributors may still have a larger stock on some types so it may be possible that they are still being sold in the US. But even vice-versa, sometimes I bought Estes engines in German shops who were produced a long, long time ago. The oldest ones I bought were from the late 70´s - and they still work

Greetings,

Oliver

I remember the discussions about the change on one of the German forums (though I could only read it through BabelFish, so I may not have gotten some of the finer points ), but Quest still makes a big deal in their ads and web site about them being German-made engines, so who else in Germany makes them?

 

[Oliver]

There are a few firework manufacturers around here who may be able to do this. However, for some reasons, I personally believe that Quest still has a large stock and is selling it now. It is not so trivial for a fireworks company to step into the model rocketry business, technically and from a business standpoint. But who knows - anyone from Quest here who could verify it?

Greets,

Oliver

 

[shreadvector]

I saw a bunch of packs of Quest motors that had recently arrived at a Hobby people store. I did not examine them very closely but from a glance, they seemed to have a new outer label with English and German on the motor label.

Maybe I need to get some and peel off the label? And look closely at the nozzles and other features?

Quest does indeed have a large number of some motor types on hand from the ToyBiz days.

I know nothing else.

Where is Matt and his blog? (I'll bet he's in their warehouse packing boxes for the Holiday shipping crush...)

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by Oliver
There are a few firework manufacturers around here who may be able to do this. However, for some reasons, I personally believe that Quest still has a large stock and is selling it now. It is not so trivial for a fireworks company to step into the model rocketry business, technically and from a business standpoint. But who knows - anyone from Quest here who could verify it?

Greets,

Oliver

Go to this page to see pictures of these Quest motors. One is a regular blue/black label B6-4. The other two are C6-5s from two different packs. One had a rather plain Quest label (only had NAR and CSFM logos on it) covering part of the german label, while the other had nothing but the german label.

 

[Matt]

what is there in the way of high power rocketry in Germany?

by high power i mean engines in the J range and above?

what are the sort or restrictions etc?

Matt

 

[Roman]

well.... you can fly motors up to D without any problems.... For bigger certified motors(BC125 wtc.) and clusters you need a license... on launches you can fly up to G and on some up to K.... in Switzerland its like in USA, maximum is a M because of the launching areas available

 

[Karl]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
Go to this page to see pictures of these Quest motors. One is a regular blue/black label B6-4. The other two are C6-5s from two different packs. One had a rather plain Quest label (only had NAR and CSFM logos on it) covering part of the german label, while the other had nothing but the german label.

Those motors with the white casings look to me like PVC? And the close up of the modern Quest motor looks like it has a Phenolic casing!

How old are the white motors?

 

[shreadvector]

Nope. All casings are paper.

The photos show what I saw at the hobby shop recently. i need to go there today at lunchtime or after work on the way to the dept "Holiday Dinner".

If I see anything different or can expand on what the photos already show, I will post something on Sunday. I'll be busy and offline until then.

Originally posted by Karl
Those motors with the white casings look to me like PVC? And the close up of the modern Quest motor looks like it has a Phenolic casing!

How old are the white motors?

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by Karl
Those motors with the white casings look to me like PVC? And the close up of the modern Quest motor looks like it has a Phenolic casing!

How old are the white motors?

They do look like PVC but they are indeed paper, as is the blue/black casing. The casing thickness is in between a 18mm and a 13mm Estes motor.

The white motors are 2.5-3mm shorter than the Estes motor and the blue motor, and they are all about 1mm thinner. All made in 2004.

So it looks like they do have quite a bit of inventory to sell down if that decision was made in Dec 2004. Considering they probably have to buy motors by the shipping container, and that they sell a small fraction of the number of motors that Estes sells it may be awhile before we see where the new Quest motors are coming from.

 

[Matt]

What is it like in austria then?

 

[thejohnchapman]

Marxi:

Keine Angst. Ihr English genugt, und is viel besser als mein Deutsch.

John Chapman

 

[Karl]

Möchten in einer Sprache sprechen, die wir verstehen?

 

[andysrockets]

я понимаю

 

[Karl]

Ok Andy, thats a little tough
I get that it's Russian but thats about it, care to englighten us?

 

[andysrockets]

It means I understand (with emphasis on 'I', as in Russian and many languages you don't normally use the I bit). Pronounced "ya ponimiyou" (sort of).

I was only playing, and saw that it accepted Cyrillic, so left it in just to confuse or impress people.

 

[Roman]

In Austria they dont really have laws for rocket motors... You can fly clusters there and ATs(as far as I know) But you have to get them somewhere.... e.g. at ALRS in CH

 

[hokkyokusei]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
Go to this page to see pictures of these Quest motors. One is a regular blue/black label B6-4. The other two are C6-5s from two different packs. One had a rather plain Quest label (only had NAR and CSFM logos on it) covering part of the german label, while the other had nothing but the german label.

The pale brown ones with the red printing look identical to the Saschen Feurwerk motors that I use.

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by hokkyokusei
The pale brown ones with the red printing look identical to the Saschen Feurwerk motors that I use.

My understanding is that Weco Feuerwerk bought Sachen Feuerwerk sometime in the last year or two.

 

[shockwaveriderz]

I would not bet my life on it, but I may have stumbled upon Quest's new motor manufacturer.

Now that is a high probability that this is wrong, so take it for what its worth. I think Quest may have struck a deal with a Chinese company to provide it BP motor. WHy? Exchange rate plain and simple. The exchange rate between the Euro and Dollar has really stunk for quite some time. So thats one good reason to not use its former German partner. The exchange rate between the USD an dthe Chinese currency is much better. Secondly, I'm very sure the Chinese can manufacture a good old fashioned BP motor for quite a cost differential versus what the Germans could. Heck, China can even use good old fashioned slave labor if need be to lower costs even more! ( now of course, slave labor never hurt anybody, unless of course, its you that is the slave labor).

These two factors in combination provide a strong incentive for using Chinese motors as it would allow Quest to provide the US with lower cost(to them) motors while being able to offer substantial discounts to the educational market, which is their primary market, and still may a very good profit.. Imena its a win-win situation: sell Quest/Chinese motors at the same prices as current Quest/German motors: the costs are 1/3 to 1/2 less so even if you deep discount them to gain market share from Estes, you still make as much if not more profit than before. Economics 101.

And after all. 100% of Estes kits are MADE IN CHINA, so if its good enough for Estes, then its a great move for a smaller company. I wonder who makes the Quest kits? anybody know? If they aren't made in China yet, its just a matter of time.

 

[shreadvector]

Are you basing this personal theory on the GERMAN and ENGLISH printed on the new labels?

Or the Tom Lehrer song?

FWIW I think you have made up a completely false rumor. otherwise, you are claiming that Quest is lying on their website:

https://www.questaerospace.com/pages/products_motors.htm

Are you claiming that Quest is engaged in fraud?

Originally posted by shockwaveriderz
I would not bet my life on it, but I may have stumbled upon Quest's new motor manufacturer.

Now that is a high probability that this is wrong, so take it for what its worth. I think Quest may have struck a deal with a Chinese company to provide it BP motor. WHy? Exchange rate plain and simple. The exchange rate between the Euro and Dollar has really stunk for quite some time. So thats one good reason to not use its former German partner. The exchange rate between the USD an dthe Chinese currency is much better. Secondly, I'm very sure the Chinese can manufacture a good old fashioned BP motor for quite a cost differential versus what the Germans could. Heck, China can even use good old fashioned slave labor if need be to lower costs even more! ( now of course, slave labor never hurt anybody, unless of course, its you that is the slave labor).

These two factors in combination provide a strong incentive for using Chinese motors as it would allow Quest to provide the US with lower cost(to them) motors while being able to offer substantial discounts to the educational market, which is their primary market, and still may a very good profit.. Imena its a win-win situation: sell Quest/Chinese motors at the same prices as current Quest/German motors: the costs are 1/3 to 1/2 less so even if you deep discount them to gain market share from Estes, you still make as much if not more profit than before. Economics 101.

And after all. 100% of Estes kits are MADE IN CHINA, so if its good enough for Estes, then its a great move for a smaller company. I wonder who makes the Quest kits? anybody know? If they aren't made in China yet, its just a matter of time.

 

[astronboy]

I can see pros and cons to any mod roc company contracting motors from China. I am not saying that QUEST is having motors made in China... if they are, they will need to first sell out most of the German motors before we see any 'new' Chinese made motors. That is just good business sense. I use Quest motors all the time, and even collect them for the various label and motor casing differences. I like them, and have seen no evidence to date that they are currently being produced anywhere... (I have not seen any Quest motors dated as made in 2005). I am sure that QUEST has a literal boatload of motors on hand.

Here is the way I see it (which may not mean much at all...) :- )

Pros:

1) As Shockie says: Cheap labor (Made in China by skilled prison workers : - ) )


2) China is actively looking for US business partners, and at least one Chinese company is trying to find an importer on the below link:

https://www.made-in-china.com/produ...rod/TAwMDA5OTEwN/mic/Toy-Model_Rocket_Engine_(A6-3,_B6-4,_C6-4,_D5-0).html

Cons:

1) Cost of fuel for that proverbial slow boat from china is rising steadily. The trip from Germany is shorter than from China.

2) Lack of any real guarantee that the manufacturer will stand by their product. They are in China... you cannot sue them if they fail to deliver, or deliver faulty product.

3) Would not these motors need to be certified as they are from a new manufacturer?

To me, as much as I would like to see more, cheaper motors in the marketplace, the cons outweigh the pros.


In regards to fraud: Since there is no evidence that motors being retailed today are Chinese, QUEST's webpage statements about German motors are true.

*IF* and that is a big if.... Chinese motors are ready to hit the stores, then QUEST, or any other company, would change their advertising, I am sure.


Phred

 

[shreadvector]

Just to be crystal clear: I *NEVER* claimed that Quest was committing fraud. I asked the inquisitor if *HE* was claiming that Quest was lying (since he was imagining PUBLICALLY that Quest motors are now made in China).

There are some Quest motors from Germany in 2005 and they have the newer labels discussed earlier. The biggest sellers are re-ordered as they run out of stock.

 

[astronboy]

Thanks for the clarification. I have not yet seen 2005 dated QUEST motors... but I will keep an eye out for them.

is there a particular vendor/motor size that has the 2005 motors?

 

[shreadvector]

I saw C6 motors on the shelf at Hobby people stores in Southern California. My memory is fuzzy about the delay time. Could have been C6-3 or C6-5. No way it was C6-0 since I know that Quest has a large supply of those from a production run while ToyBiz owned them (German made with labels that tend to peel away at the edges).

Originally posted by astronboy
Thanks for the clarification. I have not yet seen 2005 dated QUEST motors... but I will keep an eye out for them.

is there a particular vendor/motor size that has the 2005 motors?

 

[shockwaveriderz]

fred: I think you have been working too hard or something..... your tone recently on several posts has been down right uncharacteristic of your normally level headed responses ....you need to calm down somewhat......

I was merely speculating that Quest may be "in bed" with the Chinese per engines as I am aware that they have made another deal with the chinese on certain models themselves....(don't ask/ cause I won't tell).... I was not accusing them of anything, thats your words.... and maybe they just haven't updated their website yet, ya' know? AN if they did switch to Chinese motors, there are still tens if not hundreds of thousands of German motors still in the pipeline....to sell off..... they did recently allow the cert lapse on B6-0 and B6-2....

and yes Astron Boy, they would have to get them new DOT numbers and get them recertified..... and recently I was talking with a guy I know at one of the 4 DOT approved testing labs for model rocket motors and he did say they were in the process of testing some new BP motors at that time but could not tell me anything about who they were for.....

 

[shreadvector]

Nope- not working too hard. Just tired of reading incorrect "facts" and wild speculation posted on TRF, r.m.r. and other sites which is then spread by unsuspecting readers as if it was verified fact.

Also, if Quest had a deal with a Chinese manufacturer and had not announced it yet, why would anyone want to publically announce or leak it when it might cause financial harm or damage to Quest? I guess maybe another manufacturer in competition with Quest might want to do so, or a consumer with a desire to harm Quest might do so, but I can't see any logical reason for a "normal" consumer to do so. It would not make the product show up in stores any sooner or at a lower cost. It might do the opposite.

Originally posted by shockwaveriderz
fred: I think you have been working too hard or something..... your tone recently on several posts has been down right uncharacteristic of your normally level headed responses ....you need to calm down somewhat......

I was merely speculating that Quest may be "in bed" with the Chinese per engines as I am aware that they have made another deal with the chinese on certain models themselves....(don't ask/ cause I won't tell).... I was not accusing them of anything, thats your words.... and maybe they just haven't updated their website yet, ya' know? AN if they did switch to Chinese motors, there are still tens if not hundreds of thousands of German motors still in the pipeline....to sell off..... they did recently allow the cert lapse on B6-0 and B6-2....

and yes Astron Boy, they would have to get them new DOT numbers and get them recertified..... and recently I was talking with a guy I know at one of the 4 DOT approved testing labs for model rocket motors and he did say they were in the process of testing some new BP motors at that time but could not tell me anything about who they were for.....

 

[Oliver]

I've got some news last week: Quest is now again ordering engines from Weco. I talked to Weco and they confirmed that they again shipping to them. However, they may still selling old supplies in the US.