# German Motors

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#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
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And another , now they are some strange ignitors!!

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Hi Karl !

As sb., who saw the flight live (-> I was there and flew 2 birds, as you can see in this thread), I´ll try to answer your question.

Rolli (he built the Ariane V) used Held1000 ((or H5k.. hhm)) motors in the boosters.. Somewhere in this Forum I wrote pretty much about them.. hhmm..
The Held1000 (H1k) is a German BP Motor with only 15mm Diameter, which burns slightly over 5 seconds.
This makes him to a C2- Motor.
These motors don´t have a delay or ejection Charge, but in the H5k (burn´s ~ 3sec., 25mm motor) you can epoxy an A,B or C in the "normal Delay" Site of the motor (18mm motors fit inside the paper tube of the H5k), which brings the ejection ! Very easy and it works very good.

I don´t know, why the flame looks so strange in this case (normaly its a normal A,B,C size Flame ), but I think, that:
a) the motor was shortly before the end of burn (Rolli lets the Booster stand 3sec. on the Rail, bevore he ignites the Vulcain/ middle motor)
b) the Transitions on the end of the Booster makes some strange wind profiles ..

There should be no problem, to fly these motors in the U.S., perhaps a customer wants to take these in the programm in the U.S. ?!

Marxi

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Ahhh Held1000's ! Look here , this is what happend to one at our last club launch. Not very nice.......
But that looks awesome ! They look like candle's sticking out of the mmt's! I've wanted to order those before , I have a German catalogue for all sorts of hobby stuff , 'Creative' I think it was called. And they had the A - B & C class Held motors in there . Along with rockets for £3!!!!
Ill have to dig out the catalogue and take another look .
Karl

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
they look more like smoke charges than motors

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Hi !

*autsch* bad picture.. he should have plugged the "normal Delaysite" with epoxy... I´m a little wondering, because the Held motors really don´t make an ejection and that much mess.. they just burn through at burnout..

..they had the A - B & C class Held..
Oh, I think, you misunderstood it a little. There are just 2 Held Motors! The H1k is equal to an C2 and the H5k to an E7 !

The H1ks are pretty pricy with 1 buck a motor..

Yes, Ryan.. it´s risky to lauch rockets with more than 30g..
Once the H1k got designed to fly in small balsa gliders.. in this case the 5 seconds are just great.

Marxi

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Take a look here Marxi. The Held motor fired upwards insted of firing through the nozzle like it should.

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Never seen sth. like that.. ;-)

Did the guy know, where the nozzle end is ?
Did he cover the other end with a nosecone etc. ?

I can only explain this to me, that somehow a spark flew in the forward end (<-> nozzle end) of the motor and ignited it this way..

??

Catos etc. are very rare on the H1k due to the thin diameter, small burn surface and thick paper tubes..

Marxi

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Yep he knows where the nozzle is But he did try to ignite it with Quickmatch (Fuse) instead of a ignitor , maybe this caused it?
Karl

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Didn´t mean it serious with the nozzle..

But that´s really rare.. I would say, that somehow a spark flew inside the open end (there´s no sealing of the BP, it just burns through, like I said) and ignited it ..

But I would like it much more to win in Lotto than that sth. like that happens..

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Oh, we´ve got indeed 2 very nice reloadable motors.
The BC 125 (BC means Bayern (that´s were I live) Chemie) and the BC 360 (equal to an I240 (if i remeber correctly) with only 1,5sec. burnduration)
The BC 125 actually are more than 5 motors in one.. there are much reloads with different Grain Geometries, which effect, that this motor can range from an F to an strong H Motor.
But this motor doesnt make smoke and flame at all.. but this shows, that it works on an high ISP in this case.

But I´ve to dissappoint.. this motors are - at the moment - noch Tripoli, NAR etc. certified, but we hope and I think, this is going to be changed in the future!

Did I say, that the BC 360 is 72mm in Diameter and only 12 cm long ? Kewl, huh ?

Marxi

...very Kewl !

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Forgot to say.. 3 more things:

Because of their propellant they are very predestinated vor Clusters.. but with the BC 360 the heck comes out very fat.. ;-))

I think, the reason, why the certifying procedure didn´t take place yet, is, that Tripoli says, that the igniter has to be build in, when the rocket is on the pad..
But the igniter by an BC 360 Motor has to go from the "normal Delay site" (yup, they don´t have a Delay or ejection charge as well) in the motor.
But tests with oil pressure seem to have shown, that the casing can take 300bar (!), which should´nt get reached, if the Igniter does not instantly go out of the nozzle.. (I think..)

I´ve flown a BC- 125 (H- Impuls - he needs to be ignited like the AT- motors) and have tested this propellant that way. (Fotos are in the thread above !)
Ernst Maurer (he makes this motors!) said that you can get it on with a fuse, which I tried under his supervision.
All I have to say: Yes, it really goes !

#### Justin Horne

##### Well-Known Member
You guys have some fun stuff over there... But we've got Aerotech, without alot of the regs, so I'm happy....

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
Is that ribon thing that pyro-tape stuff that you can get at Firefox? I was wondering if that would work for starting a dual canted cluster on second stage (Booster motor igniting the tape).

How fast does it burn?

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
looks more like pull strings that go to smoke charges, look very closely. Those motors are not thrusting in the pictures, they look more like that are for effect

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
(*arg* I´m so sorry for my bad Englisch..)

Hi Justin!

"You guys have some fun stuff over there..."
Yup.

"But we've got Aerotech, without alot of the regs, so I'm happy...."
That´s right, too. But the chance of flying HPR- Motors till K (never heard of sth. bigger.. but should go as well) is given over 5 times a year, which is not bad. If it would be oftener, I would´nt have money at all..
And there are many meetings in the CH (Switzerland) and Italy, were it´s similar to the level- cert. programms you guys use..

The only thing, that´s pretty hard to make with all licences is Ex, but we´ve a few guys, who are going for them..

Hi Doug !

Do you mean the pic with Rolli´s Ariane ?
Oh, that´s only crepe, a sort of duct tape..
Rolli likes to ignite the two motors with a little Bit BP (Smoke!), which he puts on the duct tape.
That way he has the Igniter secured, too.
Works very well, from what I´ve seen !

Marxi

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, Ryan is right. I´ve talked much with Rolli (he has an nice page: https://www.rolfstabroth.de/) - the two motors can lift the 4 (!?)kg Ariane only aprox. 10cm from the pad. If only one Motor fires he simply doesn´t ignite the Vulcain Motor.
He showed, that the Ariane flies straight without a booster motor too, but is still searching for Smoke charges, that brings his model more to scal in flight !

Most of his rockets really do ! Look at his scratch Saturn V !

Marxi

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
To give you an example - the pic is from his page.. if you want to know sth. of his models etc., I can ask him..

#### astronboy

##### Well-Known Member
Those German motors are pretty neat!!

Is there any way to have them shipped to the US? I LIKE that D-7....

Phred

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
Its my understanding that the very same company that makes that D7 also makes the Quest ABC motors: Saxony Fireworks in Germany.....

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
shockwaveriderz, you will laugh, but you´re right !

"Sachsen Feuerwerk" ("Weco" from now on..) exports them/ produces the Quest- Motors..

How much do they cost in the US ?
Most of us think, that the Estes motors are _much_ better, but the SF/Weco (and also Quest *lol*)- Motors are just 1/3 or so the price..

Marxi

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
Its also my understanding that the MRC model rocket ABC motors were made by the german company Moog Nico back in the late 80's ..

I also think the newer Quest micro-maxx motors are also made by SF/WECO......

I don't read german(wish I could) but I have hung out at some german rocketry related websites and used babelfish to translate what is being said.....

so you say the quest ABC motors cost you 1/3 the cost of comparable Estes ABC motors? Is that due to the exchange rate between the euro( I assume German money is now euros) and usd isn't that good right now?

Alot of USA modelers perfer the Quest motors over the Estes as they have smokier delay trains and in some cases have a little bit more newton-seconds in power.....

Wish Quest would have SF/WECO make some AB 13mm BP motors......

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Hi !

"Its also my understanding that the MRC model rocket ABC motors were made by the german company Moog Nico back in the late 80's .."
Yes, ok - I was maybe 2 years old at this time, but I think, that´s right, too.
I´ve got some Moog Motors from 1995.. I think, that was the last year, before SF began their buisness on producing the motors..

"I also think the newer Quest micro-maxx motors are also made by SF/WECO......"
Yes!

Oh, the Estes motors were always (also when we had the DM) more expensive than the SF- Motors.. (I´m pretty sure, it´s simply because of the costs for the import)

Right now, 10 SF/Weco motors are the same price as 3 Estes A,B,C Motors..

Marxi

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
edit:

"Right now, 10 SF/Weco motors are the same price as 3 Estes A,B,C Motors.."
which means ~ 10 Euro. (but sometimes a little bit more.. like 12, 13.. you know.. )

How much are they in the US ?
3 Estes E9 cost also 18,50 Euro.. how much do you pay for these motors ?

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Marxi
edit:

"Right now, 10 SF/Weco motors are the same price as 3 Estes A,B,C Motors.."
which means ~ 10 Euro. (but sometimes a little bit more.. like 12, 13.. you know.. )

How much are they in the US ?
so a 3 pak of Quest ABC costs approx $3-6 EURO ? 10 euro is approx 12.10 USD.....and we pay about$5-7 for 3 AB or C.... so you are paying a hefty markup...

well lets see....18.5 euros is equivalent to about $22.39 USD... # Estes E here cost maybe$10-16 USD depending on where you get them.. so thats a pretty good markup....

seems that the motors cost a small fortune across the pond.....wow..

#### Marxi

##### Well-Known Member
Oh...

Ok ;-)), I shouldn´t have asked this question..

#### Roman

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Marxi
Yes, Ryan is right. I´ve talked much with Rolli (he has an nice page: https://www.rolfstabroth.de/) - the two motors can lift the 4 (!?)kg
hi Marxi,

yes, youre seeing right, now im also in this forum!

you wrote sth. wrong, :
Rollis Ariane 5 doesnt weight 4kilo(8lbs.), it only weights 2,7kg.
and the Held1000 make these strange flame because Rolli filled the nozzle-site with epoxy and ignited them on the other site, so they make larger flames and more smoke!!that`s just for the show-Effect!

mfg roman