General Group Launch questions. How-to

[5thDay]

I've mentioned in the new member introduction area that I am working on forming a new club. The majority of the questions I have are (today) are ground related but before those I have a Forum Admin question:

I think a new section related to how to start/host launches would be helpful. Sticked info could be some NAR and Tripoli info, help obtaining FAA waivers act. The bulk of discussion could be on topics that section/chapter/club organizers could share related to launches, spectator policies etc. Could such a forum area be created?


On to questions I have come into recently that relate primarily to recovery but I believe the answer may lay more in having ground support.

1. Loosing sight of flying rockets, particularly smaller rockets which may not get parachute out. What technique best combats this? Being farther back from the launch, having people geographically spread out around the launch? At some point I imagine there are "recovery teams" out in the recovery area? Loss of rockets is a big reason I stopped flying from my residence and went to this larger field. Is not getting rockets back and littering launch sites par for the course?

2. Photos and video tips, both for quality and to aid in recovery? The more launches I do where I trust someone with a cell phone to record... the more difficult it becomes to say "thanks" for the shaky, fuzzy, or looking the other way videos I get. I've considered camera tripods with Alt Az mounts and wonder what other clubs use?

3. Pad assignments, on-rail or on-rod setup and recovery personnel? This is where living so far from any club makes setting up launches difficult because I haven't seen an organized launch. Who physically places the rockets and connects clips, caps etc. I had a CATO myself where I learned the lesson about how tight a cap can be on a composite motor. For a club launch is someone there to check for those things?
After a launch (hopefully someone spots it and sees where it landed) when is it retrieved and by whom? My guess is that this is where I hear "range is clear" over a PA system from launch videos? I just don't understand the entire flow of events launch to launch.

4. "Launch Staff" placement and safety. I understand the basics of field layout where spectators are allowed up to a line and higher and higher powered rockets are launched from further and further out but how do "officials" or persons recovering rockets work into this?

Sorry for all of my questions. I am having a blast and want to continue doing just that as more and more rocketeers join in during launches. With that fun however I believe must come safety measures and some generally understood practices that help to make things run smoothly and non-chaotic.

 

[llickteig1]

Your profile says Apache Junction Arizona. You can’t be that far from an already established club. Take the time to attend a launch and observe. In general, many of the questions you are asking are about responsibilities that fall on individuals, not the launch organizers or launch staff personnel. Flyers are responsible for racking, photographing, finding, and recovering their own rockets.

Launch organizers provide pads with central launch capability (usually), rocket safety inspection, structured flow of people, rockets, etc. Methods vary based upon size of rockets, number of rockets, size of crowd and so on.

Go watch launches and get ideas.

 

[Antares JS]

1. No, losing rockets is not par for the course. Rockets do get lost on occasion, but it should not be a regular thing. Fliers should be expected to adjust their flights appropriately to their field conditions. There are also no "recovery crews" at club launches other than people spontaneously doing others favors.

2. Up to the individual who wants the recording, not the club. MDRA has a youtube channel that posts about 6-12 new videos after every launch, but this is not obligatory.

3. The flier sets up his own rocket. Pad assignments are optional. At MDRA, we usually only have people assigning pads at the annual Red Glare launch, but that is only because that is such a large event. At the other monthly launches, people just take their prepped rockets up, pick a pad, and set up while the range is clear. Once a bunch of pads are loaded or some time has passed, the range will be closed and the LCO will launch the rockets one at a time. Once all the rockets are launched, the range is opened again for people to go recover their rockets and set up more. Fliers recover their own rockets.

4. You need a minimum of two officials: the RSO and the LCO. The RSO is the range safety officer and inspects every rocket before it is allowed to be mounted on a pad. The RSO needs to be someone the club trusts to make sound judgments on whether a rocket should be allowed to fly or not and not be allowed to be overruled on his decisions. The LCO is the launch control officer and has control of the launch controller and opening/closing the range.

 

[5thDay]

I appreciate your response, thank you. The nearest public club I have found is located in Kingman, AZ. That is roughly 3.5 hours away and I am making plans to attend a launch there since a member reached out to me through TRF. Specifically, a request was made to have myself and other members of this new club attempt L1 flights.
There are a number of clubs located in the nearby area we call The Valley but they are all private or advertised as exclusive to their school function.
The launch area being used is property of the City of Apache Junction and authorization to use it is being granted by their parks department. Outside of scout groups asking to launch small estes model rockets, the director tells me they have never had another request to fly. The charter specifically states rockets are not allowed at any public park without written authorization. In getting such authorization for myself and later for people I invite to form a group/club/section; there are many questions they want answered ahead of time relating to such specifics.

 

[5thDay]

Antares JS,

Your response to number 3 makes a TON of sense. Thank you!

Obviously thank you for all of your comments but that one in particular explained a lot and makes sense of "range is open" that I was hearing on various videos.

Structure like that is helpful when presenting or answering to the parks department about how people will remain safe during our launches and is not specifically included in the basic NAR safety code.

 

[samb]

Are you considering a new NAR section or Tripoli prefecture or an independent group? Not sure what your distinction between a public or private club is. In any case, I would encourage you to make a trip to one of those launches to see what's up.

https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/nar-map-locator/

Looks like this one is closer to you than Kingman:
SUPERSTITION SPACEMODELING SOCIETY

https://tripoli.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=225&club_id=795696

 

[neil_w]

I appreciate your response, thank you. The nearest public club I have found is located in Kingman, AZ. That is roughly 3.5 hours away and I am making plans to attend a launch there since a member reached out to me through TRF.

That is good. Even though it is a long trek, you *really* should be acquainted with how a club launch works, first-hand, before starting your own. Getting answers here is great, but it is no substitute for getting the "feel" of the real thing.

 

[5thDay]

I appreciate all of the input very much. I agree completely that experiencing club launches first-hand is ideal.
My immediate goal is securing authorization to fly at this parks department managed site in order to gain experience that I simply can not from my residence.
Beyond that, if I locate other rocketeers interested in flying "under" my authorization than that could potentially lead to a unofficial club, and potentially enough regulars interested in forming a NAR section, which could potentially lead to requesting a FAA Waiver, etc etc.

Each of those potential paths involves imaginary people and me spending their imaginary money on memberships. The reasoning for even considering a group of people launching from this location is to include that potential in my authorization.

My advertisements will be something to the effect of "come on out while I am flying and if your actions don't endanger my authorization have fun and see if you like it." The city obviously has concerns about the idea of suddenly having a large group of flyers and spectators so some idea of how logistics might work are important to them. My final meeting with them is today and certain limits will be discussed. In trying to avoid having weekly meetings with their department if more people fly, we will be discussing some potential growth paths and what safeties would be utilized.

Hopefully this makes more sense now. I am not declaring myself an expert or capable in anyway of organizing launches at my current experience level. I am learning how other groups/clubs/sections set their structures up so that any possible group that forms at this location can have some options to look at.

Thanks

 

[Zeus-cat]

My club does a lot of launches and we use stakes and police tape to control where people can go. The LCO table is at the only opening in the tape that leads to the launch area. During launching people need to be behind the tape or well out in the recovery area. For any high power or heads up flights people in the field need to be facing and watching the rocket that is being launched.

We allow people to put high power rockets on the pad while we are launching low power rockets. The distance between the low and high power pads is much greater than the minimum safe distance required by the safety code.

A suggestion for photos and videos: the flyer should not be the one holding the camera. They should be watching their rocket and seeing where it lands because it is their responsibility. The flyer, or a friend, should be the person responsible for recovering the rocket. Someone else can do the camera work.

If you are doing high power then additional rules are helpful. Rockets need to be on the pad and pointed up before electronics are armed. Igniters only go in after the electronics are ready for launch.

 

[neil_w]

A suggestion for photos and videos: the flyer should not be the one holding the camera. They should be watching their rocket and seeing where it lands because it is their responsibility. The flyer, or a friend, should be the person responsible for recovering the rocket. Someone else can do the camera work.

As I like to say: you can either watch your flight, or you can photograph (or video) your flight. Choose 1.

 

[5thDay]

All of the comments about the use of video makes me very seriously consider having an eye exam.
I never operate a camera myself on my flights but have tracked down many that I lost sight of using footage from cameras I set up or asked people to record for me. Perhaps this is more than just not developing "an eye" for it, if nobody else has difficulty seeing B motor and larger flights after motor burnout.
I fly in completely clear skies exclusively due to this difficulty and try to use obnoxiously bright colored rockets and chutes..n

 

[tsmith1315]

Perhaps this is more than just not developing "an eye" for it, if nobody else has difficulty seeing B motor and larger flights after motor burnout.

Depends on what the B motor is in- how big/how high? A 2"x 43" Arreaux on a G-motor can be visually tracked to 2500' or so, where it's a teensy speck and the parachute is a dot.

Cloud cover can provide a nice contrasting background for tracking as long as you stay under them.

If it's been more than a couple years, an eye exam would be a good idea anyway.

 

[samb]

Sounds like you have a plan 5thDay. Assuming you get the green light for some park flying I would say scrupulously follow their guidelines. Nothing will get you bounced from a field faster than pissing off the neighbors.

 

[OverTheTop]

For finding rockets it is important to get a line on the landing location. Choose a close location, say the post of the LCO tent or something else easy to see on the flight line. As the rocket is falling take a line visually through that post, the rocket and to the horizon, noting what is on the horizon in line with the rocket when it grounds. Once the range is declared open you commence walking the line from the post to the horizon and you should find your rocket somewhere along the way. Read some books on compass following to learn how to follow a line easily. Remember that once you start one of the reference points is behind you.

Also important on the range is communications. At our club we have UHF radios for that. You can tell people searching for rockets that another batch of launches is commencing, and you can also direct them to assist walking the line.

 

[boatgeek]

For finding rockets it is important to get a line on the landing location. Choose a close location, say the post of the LCO tent or something else easy to see on the flight line. As the rocket is falling take a line visually through that post, the rocket and to the horizon, noting what is on the horizon in line with the rocket when it grounds. Once the range is declared open you commence walking the line from the post to the horizon and you should find your rocket somewhere along the way. Read some books on compass following to learn how to follow a line easily. Remember that once you start one of the reference points is behind you.

Also important on the range is communications. At our club we have UHF radios for that. You can tell people searching for rockets that another batch of launches is commencing, and you can also direct them to assist walking the line.

The most important part of this process is to go 20%-40% farther than you thought the rocket could possibly be. You'll probably walk right up to it. The second most important thing is to look back every so often. Sometimes you walk by your rocket and don't realize it, but it's clear as day when you look back. the third thing is that you can get yourself back on the line you're walking by holding your arms out straight to each side. Line one arm up with your landmark near the horizon and walk until the post is in line with your other arm. Then start walking again.

 

[5thDay]

I've learned a few tricks such as red colored chalk box chalk to give me a puff of color at ejection charge and for the small added weight I dont see any harm in adding some length of streamer in addition to parachutes.
As it relates to me questioning my eyesight, I have no issues ground tracking my rockets and have done so even days later after getting a bearing or triangulation using video. I simply just loose sight of them in flight and combined with beginner's chute deployment problems I may or may not get a chance to get another bearing. Makes the most sense that my vision isn't as young and capable as I like to pretend the rest of me is.

To the reply stating parks can be difficult to maintain...

I just got back from that final meeting and my authorization was chopped to a single C motor at maximum. The City of Phoenix only allows up to B motors in parks where they allow them at all so my city's parks department wants to do similar until they have time to contact them and ask for the details of that ruling.

I guess C motors are more than the A impulse limit I self impose from my driveway, but having just done my first supersonic flight yesterday (G80-10FWL in an Estes ESAM-58) under the previous authorization it doesn't leave me excited to post fliers for flyers.

Maybe I can do some TARC challenges for a bit and nail down some fundamentals like nosecone fit and chute folding while I cross my fingers for an impulse restoration.

 

[smstachwick]

Recovering rockets can be a challenge. I’d say the advice given here is solid.

Perhaps the most important thing in rocket recovery, aside from safety, is to fly the field. Or your eyes, or whatever else the limiting factor may be. Keep an approximate mental tally of your recovery success rate. If a given airframe/motor/conditions/recovery system/eye health combination is too difficult to get back reliably, make some adjustments. The easiest thing is to limit your total impulse but there are a bunch of techniques to try (and doohickeys to buy) that can improve your odds of getting your rockets back.

A word on safety: Regardless of your launch event size, have a way of demarcating to people, even if it’s just you, where the danger zone is. The aforementioned caution tape or a similar symbolic barrier separating the spectator area from the pads works well.

Tripoli San Diego and ROC both make use of a portable PA system, and ROC even broadcasts the launch control announcements on the FM band. You can tune your radio to 90.1 MHz and listen to the commentary, which is handy for avoiding incoming rockets if you’re a few rows back on the flight line and out of audible PA range.

Setting up all this stuff may be a bit more trouble than it’s worth if it’s just you, but if you’ve got any more than about a 6 regular attendees, securing some volunteers to show up early and help with set-up might make it worthwhile.

DART is smaller and simply relies on people keeping their wits about them, although at more crowded launches I have sometimes wished for better communication from range control when rockets started landing on people’s tables.

 

[ClarkusAurelius]

Tripoli Phoenix does launches near Aguila, AZ and they have a 48,000 ft waiver. I haven’t been to a launch yet but there’s one coming up on the 23rd and 24th of April. It would be a bit of a drive for you but closer than Kingman.

City of Gilbert allows up D engines at multiple fields but I’m not sure if there are any great options. A lot of the fields seem small and when I went to the soccer field that’s allowable, it was closed and there seemed to be a lot of planes flying around. Might be good for some launches in between association rockets. Good luck getting your group together!

http://www.traphx.com/ -Tripoli Phx

city of Gilbert - https://library.municode.com/az/gil...deId=CO_CH46PARE_ARTIIPAREFARU_S46-44REALMORO

 

[samb]

…

I just got back from that final meeting and my authorization was chopped to a single C motor at maximum. The City of Phoenix only allows up to B motors in parks where they allow them at all so my city's parks department wants to do similar until they have time to contact them and ask for the details of that ruling.
I guess C motors are more than the A impulse limit I self impose from my driveway, but having just done my first supersonic flight yesterday (G80-10FWL in an Estes ESAM-58) under the previous authorization it doesn't leave me excited to post fliers for flyers.
Maybe I can do some TARC challenges for a bit and nail down some fundamentals like nosecone fit and chute folding while I cross my fingers for an impulse restoration.

Congrats on getting permission. C motor limit is same for the park where I live. Permit required, April to October only, subject to county burn restrictions. Wind direction and speed sometimes demands lower impulse for safe recovery.
How big is the field?
Is the recovery area free of obstacles?
What surrounds the field?
Did you recover your supersonic flight? Where?

Nailing down the fundamentals is always a good thing.
Get to a club launch ASAP.

 

[5thDay]

Clarkfromusa Thank You!!

Having my authorization limited to C had me disappointed but that choice by the parks department was based on Phoenix's B limit. It is definitely politics but given the appropriate "hey I was just informed," statement they may reconsider given another more populated city made allowance for D impulse.

Either way I decided to design a MD 18mm to really get all the alt I can from my limits and have started considering challenge and contest style launches.

I assume you are nearby somewhere? PM me if you would like to check out the Apache Junction area and give your thoughts.

 

[samb]

...
Either way I decided to design a MD 18mm to really get all the alt I can from my limits and have started considering challenge and contest style launches.
...

Perhaps you would consider an alternative thought process: "Given the limits, what can I fly today with good confidence of recovering safely, safely meaning within the area I am given access to without negatively impacting people or property."
Typical municipal parks are mixed use areas surrounded by suburban sprawl that present challenges for altitude seekers. One reason why clubs move further out into the outback.

 

[smstachwick]

The only other site to fly rockets within San Diego County is Jesmond Dene Park in Escondido. 2.5-hour launch window 6 days a week, 7 months a year, only up to B power. Same-day call-in required for final approval.

Only the last requirement is atypical for small sites, from what I’ve seen. Lots of rocket-eating trees, which is why I usually fly with DART at their larger G-capable field.

 

[RocketRev]

Hello 5th Day,

You mentioned "private clubs." Often, this is a reference as to who may and who may not fly rockets. The Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) (city/park district/landowner/etc.) needs control of how many folks are going to be using their land and for what purposes. The reasons for a group having a "private designation" may have more to do with insurance coverage than anything else. An official school group will of necessity be covered by the schools insurance. The same goes for scouts, church, civic, etc., groups. The AHJ will want their own backsides covered by the rocket fliers insurance not their own. So a person who walks up and asks, "Can I fly a rocket too?" ought to be turned away because they are not a member of the insured group.

I was a little worried when I read you hoped to get people to fly on "your permission/authorization." That might get you in deep trouble in more ways than one. Anybody you allow to fly on your authorization will be flying on whatever insurance you happen to have which could be a serious problem. That's why we usually band together in official NAR and/or Tripoli clubs, so that we can be under their million dollar insurance umbrellas. Unless you are independently wealthy, you can't afford to have other people flying on your authorization. If you allow someone else to fly on "your permission from the AHJ, you may lose your authorization. But it does sound like you are being open with the AHJ as to wanting to grow into a group. That's good.

Both NAR and Tripoli have Safety Codes by which their members are supposed to fly. Violate your safety code and you probably will not have insurance coverage. In these litigious days, much that we used to take for granted, now comes down to insurance coverage. Good luck.

BTW - is your name a reference to Sea Creatures and Birds by any chance?

Brad, the "Rocket Rev.," Wilson
Wilson F/X Digital Launch Control Systems