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AfterBurners

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Here in California we have lumber stores called "Ganahl Lumber" I was driving past one on my way back from walking my dog ( I usually take her on walking and hiking trails in the area) anyway as I driving past I notice their marquee. On it was the following:

"Giving up your Liberty over security will get you nothing"

My stand on this whole thing is to stay safe and follow the protocol and guidelines in place. They are there for a reason. I know that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and freedom of speech, but when I read the sign I took it as encouraging others not to follow the safety guidelines in place. I can't afford to get this virus and pass this on to others in my family so I stick to the rules.

This sign being posted is no different than the people here in Southern California who a few weeks back thought it would be cute to flood the beaches. What happened was Orange County experienced a higher spike in the number cases because of their actions.

No one's liberty or freedom is being taking away staying at home feels that way and I agree, but the big picture is to protect the population of people. The elderly, people with health issues and children will suffer the most from this.

I don't think it was in good taste for Ganahl Lumber to post what they did, because the message they are sending is of disregard to the health and well being of others. At least that's how I interrupt it.
 

heada

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I think the basis for that is the Benjamin Franklin quote "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." I don't think it applies to the current situation but I can see how some would think so.
 

Bill S

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I suspect that they put that up there because they see the trend emerging, wherein the media whips up a frenzy of fear, and fearful people are always willing to give up their rights to secure "safety" for themselves. Certainly, politicians are eager to give them what they want, get to exercise as much power as they can, and create the "new normal" in which some of those rights are GONE forever. Rights taken away never return, short of a revolution, and maybe not even then. In a number of states, the governors have been acting like tyrants, with the simpering judicial system giving them free reign.

Look at the plans for the following:

a) Contract tracing (voluntary cell phone apps and phone OS updates, soon to become mandatory like they always do).
b) Employers looking into making employees wear tracking devices like cattle to ensure they "social distance" (which has zero actual studies done to ensure it actually works; someone at CDC probably just pulled the number out of their butt)
c) Certain industries basically required to change so radically that most of the businesses won't survive (restaurant, salons, hair cut places, theraputic massage (this one I use and really need).
d) Scaring the crap out of the kids into accepting major changes to schooling (online at home, changing the classroom experience such that its barely recognizeable, no after school social activities)

There is also a disturbing trend for busy-body people, mainly middle aged women (I call them Karens), who are eager and willing to snitch out their fellow citizens for perceived infractions of various feel good measures. The Stasi or KGB would be proud of them. Which demonstrates why many people were quite willing to snitch out the Jews pre-WWII. Now these people have always been around, but they are really loving the current environment, and I suspect they will only get more emboldened, as part of the "new normal" (a phrase that I really hate).

I could go on and on, but that would be a waste of time I suspect. :mad:
 

Marc_G

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@Bill S , I agree with much of what you wrote but want to set the matter straight on contact tracing apps. This is actually one of our best potential tools at fighting the virus and keeping businesses open during the anticipated fall case surge. The idea of contact tracing apps is WIDELY misunderstood and misinterpreted into something Orwellian. a good explanation of how it works can be found here, about half to two thirds down the (very long) page: https://ncase.me/covid-19/

All they do is send and receive (exchange) a series of essentially random hashes, and if someone gets sick they report it, enabling the people to understand if they've been significantly exposed to the virus via daily (automated) review with the health authority that keeps records of which hashes are associated with someone who got sick. They are designed to be privacy first and not any sort of spyware. That said, the US implementation is still sorting out permissions issues and the like with some notable failures. It isn't perfect. But hopefully over the coming months we'll get better at it and it will become a useful tool. I'll be the first to sign up for it if it is implemented in my area. China might make them required to use the public transportation or something, but in the US I don't see this ever happening. I'm all for masks, social distancing, and other measures but I would never support a required app.
 

Bill S

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@Bill S , I agree with much of what you wrote but want to set the matter straight on contact tracing apps. This is actually one of our best potential tools at fighting the virus and keeping businesses open during the anticipated fall case surge. The idea of contact tracing apps is WIDELY misunderstood and misinterpreted into something Orwellian. a good explanation of how it works can be found here, about half to two thirds down the (very long) page: https://ncase.me/covid-19/

All they do is send and receive (exchange) a series of essentially random hashes, and if someone gets sick they report it, enabling the people to understand if they've been significantly exposed to the virus via daily (automated) review with the health authority that keeps records of which hashes are associated with someone who got sick. They are designed to be privacy first and not any sort of spyware. That said, the US implementation is still sorting out permissions issues and the like with some notable failures. It isn't perfect. But hopefully over the coming months we'll get better at it and it will become a useful tool. I'll be the first to sign up for it if it is implemented in my area. China might make them required to use the public transportation or something, but in the US I don't see this ever happening. I'm all for masks, social distancing, and other measures but I would never support a required app.
I don't believe for a minute that Apple, Google, etc, would spend all this money to put in place the infrastructure to track everyone in real time, and then dismantle it when the "emergency" is done. And I don't believe for even one second that they won't give access to the various .govs whenever asked. Once the infrastructure is in place it'll be forever used. It'll be great for tracking down political dissidents and deplorables, or those simply out favor with the current admin. Doesn't matter which party would be in control, such abilities would be irresistable to not abuse.

Unless you get close to 100% of the population using said tracking apps (which China did by basically making it illegal to not use them and combined it with their social scoring system such that you can't function in society w/o said phone and software), its going to miss a lot of interactions. Which dilutes the effectiveness of the program.

Here are some scenarios that were discussed on another forum, which are likely to happen, and unless you make carrying a tracking device mandatory with draconian penalties for non-complilance (aka cellphone with mandatory tracking turned on), you won't stop enough carriers to make a big difference.

1) What about a highly contagious shedding homeless person shopping at Dollar General in Kansas City without a cellphone?

2) What about an illegal alien buying cigarettes in El Paso?

3) What about 15,000 untracked people in Imperial County CA picking strawberries, meanwhile 77 of them have caught a freight going east to Georgia and Tennessee and split up in Kansas City?

Being as I am not addicted to my smartphone, I will probably just not sign up, and if they try to make it mandatory, then said phone is going to be sold off - nobody but scammers ever calls me, and being as I don't use it much for other than the occasional text, I won't miss it much.
 

Zeus-cat

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If you think their sign sends the wrong message you should let them know. And don't just say you think that they are wrong; repeat what you said here. You have the right to express your opinion and so do they. If they ignore your message you have the right to shop somewhere else.

Personally, I think most businesses should stay away from political messages as it could alienate a sizeable portion of their customer base for little gain. But they are free to say what they want.
 

Marc_G

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I don't believe for a minute that Apple, Google, etc, would spend all this money to put in place the infrastructure to track everyone in real time, and then dismantle it when the "emergency" is done. And I don't believe for even one second that they won't give access to the various .govs whenever asked. Once the infrastructure is in place it'll be forever used. It'll be great for tracking down political dissidents and deplorables, or those simply out favor with the current admin. Doesn't matter which party would be in control, such abilities would be irresistable to not abuse.
My point is that the contact tracing isn't a realtime tracking infrastructure. The only information it uses is time stamp and exchange of unique hashstrings. Each record would have a time stamp and the unique hash string, that's it. Please look at the link I gave you above; it explains it. Contact tracing in a privacy-first mechanism could really help us. It's just a more automated, private and useful form of what we did at my club launch last weekend: we maintained a log with name and phone number of everyone present so we could notify the group if someone came down sick within the next two weeks. Name and phone number, wow that's personal info for sure. Much more so than a time stamp and essentially random hash. There is no usefully-mineable information in contact tracing dumps. These apps are iterating because of course developers put all kind of crap in them; the first several have gone back to the drawing board to slim them down and reduce permissions needed. By the time of widescale deployment they will probably be the safest apps on Google Play and the App Store.

There's already a real time tracking for "almost everyone" based on smartphones as they have been for quite a few years now. I say almost everyone because not everyone has a smart phone and some people turn off tracking features or significantly restrict them. I don't bother; I would prefer my wife to look at my Google locator to see if I'm almost home (presuming I ever went out :) these days) rather than call me to see when I'm going to be home. Before COVID, I used navigation apps to go to and from work to avoid congestion. There's a record of where I've been and I really don't care that it exists. If I decide to join a terrorist cell or somesuch I guess I will turn off location services.

Unless you get close to 100% of the population using said tracking apps (which China did by basically making it illegal to not use them and combined it with their social scoring system such that you can't function in society w/o said phone and software), its going to miss a lot of interactions. Which dilutes the effectiveness of the program.
Here are some scenarios that were discussed on another forum, which are likely to happen, and unless you make carrying a tracking device mandatory with draconian penalties for non-complilance (aka cellphone with mandatory tracking turned on), you won't stop enough carriers to make a big difference. (snip)
Again, this is completely wrong and is a wide misconception. Something like 60% compliance would be strongly effective. Contact tracing is part of the solution, not the whole solution. It contributes to reducing the R factor (viral replication number) and once we get it below 1 we win over time. Please see the link I gave; it talks about this. Every contagious person we pull out of circulation helps. This is a tool to do it, in conjunction with other measures. There's a lot of people who don't know they are infecting others.
 

dr wogz

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Bill, you don't think you're being tracked, monitored & watched right now? without any additional apps or software?

(This site alone has at least a half dozen trackers)
 

Bill S

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Bill, you don't think you're being tracked, monitored & watched right now? without any additional apps or software?

(This site alone has at least a half dozen trackers)
I've taken what steps I can to block trackers online. Its a known risk, but an acceptable one. Being tracked in real-time is really creepy and I dislike it intensely. I oftentimes leave my phone home. :)

Marc,
Given that cellphone providers can already correlate a phone's SIM card/MAC address to a given address (assuming you aren't the paranoid type who only turns on your phone when you are a few blocks from your house), they can already track one to an extent. All they have to do is geo-locate the phone (even with location data turned off it can be done) and correlate it with a physical street address. Even if you were upping your game and use a sterile burner phone to help preserve your privacy, if you turn it on at one of your known places like home/work/gym, they can already figure out who you are and where you've been. So coming up with some apps and some special hash-strings and timestamps seems redundant to me. Then again I'm not an IT professional, but I do have a profound distrust of Big Tech and what the .gov has been doing for years, so that probably colors my beliefs. I have no illusion that what they want to do is for my benefit. It might benefit me, but maybe not, and I don't trust them to not misuse the data.
 

Marc_G

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I've taken what steps I can to block trackers online. Its a known risk, but an acceptable one. Being tracked in real-time is really creepy and I dislike it intensely. I oftentimes leave my phone home. :)

Marc,
Given that cellphone providers can already correlate a phone's SIM card/MAC address to a given address (assuming you aren't the paranoid type who only turns on your phone when you are a few blocks from your house), they can already track one to an extent. All they have to do is geo-locate the phone (even with location data turned off it can be done) and correlate it with a physical street address. Even if you were upping your game and use a sterile burner phone to help preserve your privacy, if you turn it on at one of your known places like home/work/gym, they can already figure out who you are and where you've been. So coming up with some apps and some special hash-strings and timestamps seems redundant to me. Then again I'm not an IT professional, but I do have a profound distrust of Big Tech and what the .gov has been doing for years, so that probably colors my beliefs. I have no illusion that what they want to do is for my benefit. It might benefit me, but maybe not, and I don't trust them to not misuse the data.
Mostly agree with what you are saying here, but the contact tracing thing is misunderstood. It's done with short range bluetooth which mostly works within a few meters (33 feet max range, but usually 15-20 feet in practice). The contact tracing data doesn't include geolocation. Sure, someone could dump geolocation from the phone and line up time stamps, but why? The CT hashes have no value. It's completely harmless because it has NO data that is useful except for understanding whether or not you've been near folks that have self-reported as being positive.

My point is that contact tracing isn't any form of incremental loss of privacy. Big Tech already knows who we are and where we are and our habits and they mine the data for profit; I don't pay Google for the use of their email or Maps program or search function or (insert 50 other things I do with Google here). In return they can use my data for profit. If I don't pay for a product, I just assume I'm the product, one way or another. On top of what is already going on, contact tracing represents zero threat.
 

kuririn

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From what I understand, the majority of contact tracing work is NOT done through cell phone apps.
It is done by trained personnel contacting infected persons and asking pertinent questions.
Then following up with potentially infected contacts further down the "tree".
my health is my responsibility. no one elses.
Except when your actions (or inactions) put other people's health in danger.
This is why there are DUI laws. Your "right" to drink as much alcohol when you want and wherever you want then step behind the wheel is subordinate to the safety of others when you are impaired.
Exactly the same.
 

tomsteve

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Except when your actions (or inactions) put other people's health in danger.
This is why there are DUI laws. Your "right" to drink as much alcohol when you want and wherever you want then step behind the wheel is subordinate to the safety of others when you are impaired.
Exactly the same.
we can agree to disagree.
comparing a mind and mood altering substance to a virus,imo, is rather crazy.
if im concerned about others having the rona and not wearing a mask, it is MY responsibility to wear a mask and not just any old mask/face covering. it is my responsibility to learn what mask is effective( the n95 mask is not) at protecting me and get one.
 

Marc_G

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we can agree to disagree.
comparing a mind and mood altering substance to a virus,imo, is rather crazy.
if im concerned about others having the rona and not wearing a mask, it is MY responsibility to wear a mask and not just any old mask/face covering. it is my responsibility to learn what mask is effective( the n95 mask is not) at protecting me and get one.
Wrong. Most people spreading the virus are asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic carriers who are sure they are healthy at the time. Even simple cloth masks are very effective at containment and greatly reduce spread of infectious droplets to protect others around them. That's why we should all wear masks when we are going to be in public places encountering others.

Masks protect you by protecting others.
 

kuririn

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we can agree to disagree.
comparing a mind and mood altering substance to a virus,imo, is rather crazy.
if im concerned about others having the rona and not wearing a mask, it is MY responsibility to wear a mask and not just any old mask/face covering. it is my responsibility to learn what mask is effective( the n95 mask is not) at protecting me and get one.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. The reason that wearing of masks is recommended is not to protect you from being infected by others. It is to prevent your respiratory droplets from infecting others if you have the virus and are asymptomatic.
Therefore it is not only a courtesy to others while you are in public, but could very well save innocent people's lives that you may come into contact with.
At the very least it will cut down the spread and R0 (infectiousness) factor.
 
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dr wogz

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wear a mask.

If you're worried about being infected, wear it with the blue side out.
If you're worried about infecting others, wear it blue side in..

simple as that.
 

tomsteve

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its amazing how many people have become infectious disease experts in such a short time.
 

kuririn

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its amazing how many people have become infectious disease experts in such a short time.
The information is directly from statements by infectious disease experts and the CDC.
Educate yourself.
 

kuririn

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Here's what Dr. Faucci says about wearing masks.
You do know who Dr. Faucci is, right?
 

jmuck78

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but when I read the sign I took it as encouraging others not to follow the safety guidelines in place
Why would you assume that - that's not what the quote says?

This sign being posted is no different than the people here in Southern California who a few weeks back thought it would be cute to flood the beaches.
Technically, you are right - both the sign and people going to the beach were misinterpreted. People didn't "flood" the beaches, and the only people who didn't observe social distancing were the police. The media likes to play games with infection statistics to suit their agenda - routinely observing that there is a "spike" in COVID cases within a day of some event they don't like. In this case, there were stories indicating a "spike" in COVID cases the day after people went to the beach for memorial day - that causal relationship just isn't credible.
 

kuririn

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Why would you assume that - that's not what the quote says?
I came to the same interpretation as AfterBurners.
In this case, there were stories indicating a "spike" in COVID cases the day after people went to the beach for memorial day - that causal relationship just isn't credible.
I agree that any story that links a spike in cases to an event the day before isn't credible. Can you provide links to those stories?
The crowded beaches that AfterBurners references to was during a heat wave in Orange County back in April. There was a spike in cases about a week later.
As you can see, very little adherence to social distancing or mask wearing.
More pics if you scroll down to the tweets.
 

jmuck78

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I agree that any story that links a spike in cases to an event the day before isn't credible. Can you provide links to those stories?
Here's an article on the post-memorial day "spike": https://patch.com/california/hollywood/la-sees-largest-coronavirus-spike-stealth-spreaders-pose-risk

The crowded beaches that AfterBurners references to was during a heat wave in Orange County back in April. There was a spike in cases about a week later.
As you can see, very little adherence to social distancing or mask wearing.
More pics if you scroll down to the tweets.
I see the pics, but don't agree that they demonstrate improper social distancing. We've seen similar photos from Florida from ground level that appeared to show tightly packed crowds until contemporaneous photos from above showed something else entirely. The NARCity article also points to 300 new cases in a week - which is more credible than 1 day - but doesn't account for the increases in testing that could also account for the new cases, and heavily implies that those new cases are due to people going to the beach, without directly saying so. Its possible people were infected after going to the beach, its even possible that most of those 300 new cases were due to people flouting safety rules at the beach - but the data doesn't support that (yet). It's equally possible that almost none of those new cases were due to people at the beach and that most of those new cases were due to increases in testing.
 

kuririn

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Dude, the article you linked to attributes the spike to a testing backlog, not crowded beaches on Memorial Day.
 

Steve Shannon

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Here in California we have lumber stores called "Ganahl Lumber" I was driving past one on my way back from walking my dog ( I usually take her on walking and hiking trails in the area) anyway as I driving past I notice their marquee. On it was the following:

"Giving up your Liberty over security will get you nothing"

My stand on this whole thing is to stay safe and follow the protocol and guidelines in place. They are there for a reason. I know that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and freedom of speech, but when I read the sign I took it as encouraging others not to follow the safety guidelines in place. I can't afford to get this virus and pass this on to others in my family so I stick to the rules.

This sign being posted is no different than the people here in Southern California who a few weeks back thought it would be cute to flood the beaches. What happened was Orange County experienced a higher spike in the number cases because of their actions.

No one's liberty or freedom is being taking away staying at home feels that way and I agree, but the big picture is to protect the population of people. The elderly, people with health issues and children will suffer the most from this.

I don't think it was in good taste for Ganahl Lumber to post what they did, because the message they are sending is of disregard to the health and well being of others. At least that's how I interrupt it.
Afterburners,
I’m especially disheartened by the progression we’ve seen in rhetoric. First it was “I’m free; I shouldn’t be compelled to wear a mask!”
Then it became “The government is trying to brainwash us!”
Which became “If you’re so scared, you wear a mask!” which hearkens back to grade school taunting of “Scaredy-cat!” or “Only sheeple wear masks!” which is about the same thing. I truly believe that someone is acting to foment division.
But the liberty vs. security argument has been used repeatedly as an argument against various initiatives, sometimes ones that rouse me and sometimes ones that bother me. That sign may have been put up for any number of things. For your own peace of mind don’t let it get to you.
 

AfterBurners

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Afterburners,
I’m especially disheartened by the progression we’ve seen in rhetoric. First it was “I’m free; I shouldn’t be compelled to wear a mask!”
Then it became “The government is trying to brainwash us!”
Which became “If you’re so scared, you wear a mask!” which hearkens back to grade school taunting of “Scaredy-cat!” or “Only sheeple wear masks!” which is about the same thing. I truly believe that someone is acting to foment division.
But the liberty vs. security argument has been used repeatedly as an argument against various initiatives, sometimes ones that rouse me and sometimes ones that bother me. That sign may have been put up for any number of things. For your own peace of mind don’t let it get to you.
It's possible that I may have misinterpreted it based on some of the other replies.
 

tomsteve

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Here's what Dr. Faucci says about wearing masks.
You do know who Dr. Faucci is, right?
nope! just an uneducated redneck punk who dont know nuthin.

other than reading what others have said, what is YOUR education on infectious diseases? what degree do you have? where did YOU study? i hope it wasnt google U
 

kuririn

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You do know who Dr. Faucci is, right?
nope! just an uneducated redneck punk who dont know nuthin.
Now I see what the problem is.
other than reading what others have said, what is YOUR education on infectious diseases? what degree do you have? where did YOU study? i hope it wasnt google U
Did I ever claim to be an expert on infectious diseases? Of course not.
I am simply relaying direct statements from the experts in response to misstatements posted here.
Believe them, or don't believe them. But don't blame me if it conflicts with your own personal belief system. Because frankly, I don't care.
 
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