# full scale manned rocket glider

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#### some guy

##### Member
this might sound a bit unsafe and unusual but i'm trying to build a manned rocket glider powered by one of those sugar rockets. according to my calculations i'd need a rocket that produces about a 1000lb of thrust for at least 5 seconds. now, the thing i can't quite figure out is how big and heavy would such a rocket be and how hard would it be to make it?

#### Zeus-cat

##### Well-Known Member
Have at it; after you try we'll change your user name to some corpse.

#### MECO

##### Active Member
I always enjoy Z-C’s sense of humor.

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
Better start small scale unmanned. Crash a couple of those then get back to us if your still nuts enough to try full scale.

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
We’d recommend APCP fuel for your safety. It’s less likely to you know explode. The politically correct types around here use the word CATO. But since your going to be riding the d*mn thing, I want you to know the non PC term. Because shrapnel risk.

Oh and find some Mechanical and Aeronautical engineers so the math is correct for the love of God.

#### some guy

##### Member
Better start small scale unmanned. Crash a couple of those then get back to us if your still nuts enough to try full scale.
already did. that's why i'm asking how big of a rocket would i need to generate 1000lb of thrust

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
Well there’s a research section of this forum. You’d need to be L-1 certified to join. Then L-2 certified to buy chemicals. They can explain to you how to make APCP motors. What your doing probably violates all safety codes of Tripoli and NAR in hobby rockets at least.

But hey Burt Rutan an X-15 design aeronautics engineer strapped a rocket motor to a Long EZ experimental aircraft that he designed himself and test flew it as a licensed pilot for scaled composites. But he knew WTF he was doing.

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st

XCOR Aerospace has involvement. Look up the Rocket Long Ez.

#### Wayco

##### Desert Rat Rocketeer
A CTI O3400 produces about 1000 lbs of thrust for about 3.5 seconds. It weighs about 37 lbs. and fits in an aluminum casing 4 inches in diameter and is just over four feet long.

Motor: Cesaroni O3400
Contributor: Andre Choquette
Submitted: Dec 14, 2012
Last Updated: Dec 14, 2012
Data Format: RockSim
Data Source: Certification Org
Statistics Declared Calculated Official
Diameter (mm):
98.0 98.0
Length (cm): 123.9 123.9
Prop. Weight (g): 11,272.0 10,930.0
Total Weight (g): 16,842.0 16,842.0
Avg. Thrust (N): 3,328.2 3,424.3 3,416.7
Max. Thrust (N): 4,698.6 4,698.6 4,750.3
Tot. Impulse (Ns): 21,041.0 21,041.0 21,062.2
Burn Time (s): 6.3 6.1 6.2

Burn time is the total time of burn, thrust tapers off after about 3.5 seconds:

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#### some guy

##### Member
i don't care about legality and safety protocols. all i need to know is one simple thing: how big of a rocket would i need to generate that kind of thrust? just a simple kno3 sugar rocket without any fancy exotic chemical additives. my budget is very tight

#### some guy

##### Member
A CTI O3400 produces about 1000 lbs of thrust for about 3.5 seconds. It weighs about 37 lbs.

Motor: Cesaroni O3400
Contributor: Andre Choquette
Submitted: Dec 14, 2012
Last Updated: Dec 14, 2012
Data Format: RockSim
Data Source: Certification Org
Statistics Declared Calculated Official
Diameter (mm):
98.0 98.0
Length (cm): 123.9 123.9
Prop. Weight (g): 11,272.0 10,930.0
Total Weight (g): 16,842.0 16,842.0
Avg. Thrust (N): 3,328.2 3,424.3 3,416.7
Max. Thrust (N): 4,698.6 4,698.6 4,750.3
Tot. Impulse (Ns): 21,041.0 21,041.0 21,062.2
Burn Time (s): 6.3 6.1 6.2

Burn time is the total time of burn, thrust tapers off after about 3.5 seconds:

that's definitely something to work with

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
You need an L-3 rocketry certification to purchase o3400. The FAA will give a sh*t as it operates in their airspace. You’ll need a pilot’s license bud at min. It’s a manned powered aircraft at this point not just a hang glider.

#### Wayco

##### Desert Rat Rocketeer
Pretty sure you can't just go out and buy a sugar rocket motor. The O3400 costs about $1500 just for the propellant, the casing is another$745.

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
I’m not trying to be mean to the guy. I figured he’d have to make the motor he wanted. It’s a steep thrust and burn time requirement.

#### Andrew_ASC

A Burt Rutan Varieze homebuilt aircraft is about $10-15k in airframe materials and tools to make not including a motor. The plans are online. It’s at least a proven aeronautical design. #### Andrew_ASC ##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st People have tried to fly homebuilt aircraft without pilot’s licenses in the past. They usually wind up as dead corpses. Not trying to belittle the guy. #### Wayco ##### Desert Rat Rocketeer TRF Lifetime Supporter I’m not trying to be mean to the guy. I figured he’d have to make the motor he wanted. It’s a steep thrust and burn time requirement. It's just a matter of perspective, you are not being mean. On this forum though, we all try to fit these ideas into our "model rocket" world, and it doesn't work for stuff like this. He wanted to know about a motor, not the rules governing it's use. I have an O3400 and a pilots license, and if this experiment were to occur, (unlikely) I would pay money to watch it with both feet firmly on the ground. A Burt Rutan Varieze homebuilt aircraft is about$10-15k in airframe materials and tools to make not including a motor. The plans are online. It’s at least a proven aeronautical design.
This is also great information, and will help "some guy" put things in perspective. An experimental manned aircraft will be expensive even if one could be built from scratch. A sugar motor would have to be scaled up from something much smaller, with a exponential learning curve, to even come close to what the O3400 can produce. Either of these projects would require years to achieve, and burn through a bunch of money.

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
The O3400 should give you a feel for the numbers if you run APCP motor. Not sure about sugars, but probably heavier due to lower Isp so more fuel needed.

my budget is very tight
Spend plenty of it on safety equipment. I would be thinking a ballistic chute would be a good investment and minimum from a sanity POV.

Whatever you do don't kill yourself, or jeapordise anything the rocketry community does legally.

Could just be a nice thought and theory experiment

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
It looks like the O5800-P meets his burn time requirement and exceeds his thrust requirement. I’m seeing figures in the \$3.4k range.

#### timbucktoo

##### Well-Known Member
Staff member
Global Mod
Try contacting this guy:

#### georgegassaway

Given the stated parameters and experience.....

#### some guy

##### Member
can anyone at least tell me if it's possible to put together a simple sugar rocket that could produce the required thrust? i can't afford those fancy pre built rockets

##### Well-Known Member
It is possible but it wont be cheap, easy or simple.

#### BDB

##### Absent Minded Professor
These guys have been working on building a large sugar motor for over a decade:

They tested an O-motor earlier this year. So, yes, it's probably possible, but it is far from the simple, ready-mix solution that the OP is likely envisioning.

The cheapest option would probably be a steam motor like that idiot tried earlier this year (post #20). But it would be a stretch to call that "flight" a success.

#### Wayco

##### Desert Rat Rocketeer
can anyone at least tell me if it's possible to put together a simple sugar rocket that could produce the required thrust? i can't afford those fancy pre built rockets
The simple answer is no. Most people on here use Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant. Sugar motors are like a red flag. You might try contacting the "Sugar shot to space" forum here:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32295.40

If you can't afford those fancy pre built motors, this experiment will be "just a nice thought and theory experiment". Just scrolling around on that forum will quickly make clear why a sugar motor is a BAD idea for a manned flight.

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#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
i don't care about legality and safety protocols. all i need to know is one simple thing: how big of a rocket would i need to generate that kind of thrust? just a simple kno3 sugar rocket without any fancy exotic chemical additives. my budget is very tight
Sure. Plug the specific impulse of a well characterized sugar propellant into Tsiolkovsky. When you've got the total impulse figured, you can work out the diameter and length of motor necessary.

Hoop strength vs. temperature curves for 6061-t6 are widely published, so all you have to do is design a winglet that will withstand such forces. Oh and also a new human body because, y'know, jelly.

( please do not actually do any of this ; please do consider visiting your local rocketry club to safely fly each letter of the alphabet from A-G, then see if you want to continue )

#### Andrew_ASC

##### UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
This is exactly the kind of person that keeps the FAA gurus up at night. The guy who doesn’t care about his own safety let alone others safety.

#### Crawf56

##### Pig Soooiiieee!!
TRF Supporter
I find myself wondering if this thread is an undercover FBI sting operation....

#### ksaves2

I find myself wondering if this thread is an undercover FBI sting operation....
If it is, it's a pretty sloppy one. Could be a "bad boy" looking to do something other than flying himself. I've seen some of those insane "manned" amateur rockets with the "astronut" standing up!! Unless the motor is a very gentle long burn, it's not to smart to
apply high G's to the long axis of one's spine.

Sure they do it with an ejection seat, but they're angled a bit and the burn isn't that long. In that case, better to have a few compression fractures than be dead.

What the OP is wanting to do is just plan stupid if he's serious about flying the thing in R.O.G. mode. If a theoretical exercise, then fine, have at it and post the numbers so everyone can go wow! That's stupid crazy. Trying to cast a required sugar motor without expertise is plain idiotic too. Kurt

#### some guy

##### Member
alright then here's some context: i wanted to build an ultralight plane, i quickly realized i'll never be able to afford a proper engine, i almost gave up on the whole thing, then i thought i could still try to do a non powered glider, i again realized it'd be too much of a hassle to launch such a thing, then i remembered about those homemade rockets and now i'm here asking for advice.

i'm not trying to reach mach 1 or go to space, i just need the boost to launch a glider from the top of a nearby hill then glide to the landing zone.
i'm doing this one way or another regardless of what anyone tells me so if you guys would give me some practical advice i'd have much higher chances of success

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