Frustrated by Aerotech missing o-ring - couldn't do my L1 cert flight today.

[WizardOfBoz]

Those of us old enough remember Heathkit. A friend was assembling an oscilloscope. When he wasn't looking, I added a couple extra resistors to the parts pile.

Hans.

Hans, I've built a Heathkit Oscilloscope. You are one sick puppy.

 

[CalebJ]

Those of us old enough remember Heathkit. A friend was assembling an oscilloscope. When he wasn't looking, I added a couple extra resistors to the parts pile.

Hans.

My 9 year old is upstairs soldering together a little line following robot right now. It's one of his first projects so it's not time to start playing tricks like that on him yet, but that day is coming!

 

[WizardOfBoz]

Basically, look to see how many spacers you can use and determine what all cases you need to get in order to cover the full line. You can use those same spacers in a 240 case to get the 180 loads, or in a 180 case to get the 120 loads. So, with 2 cases and the RAS, you should be able to fly any 29mm load you want (for the HPR style cases, not the 29/40-120 loads.

That's what I thought when I bought the 360 and the RAS but if I understand correctly, the 360 plus the three spacers doesnt allow you to run the 180 motors.

 

[Neutronium95]

Basically, look to see how many spacers you can use and determine what all cases you need to get in order to cover the full line. You can use those same spacers in a 240 case to get the 180 loads, or in a 180 case to get the 120 loads. So, with 2 cases and the RAS, you should be able to fly any 29mm load you want (for the HPR style cases, not the 29/40-120 loads.

With two cases you can fly most of the HPR style 29mm reloads. The 29/100 case is a weird intermediate size that you can't get to with spacers.

Unfortunately, Aerotech has a bunch of these weird edge cases, like the J99 is a 54/852 reload, but it requires the special rear closure that is otherwise only ever used for 54/426 motors.

 

[loopy]

That's what I thought when I bought the 360 and the RAS but if I understand correctly, the 360 plus the three spacers doesnt allow you to run the 180 motors.

And you wouldn't be able to get to the G reloads in the 120 case. Which is why I would recommend just getting the 360 motor and the 180 case if you want to fly all of those. I can't remember how the spacers work in the 29mm stuff - I bought my 29 and 38mm stuff long before the spacers existed...lol

 

[cerving]

I bought a bunch of those non-hazmat AT J520's when they came out, the ones with the 15 tiny grains and a ton of o-rings. The first one that I assembled was exactly per the instructions... which did not mention those 14 extra grain spacer o-rings, BTW, so I didn't install them. It did seem to rattle quite a bit... but it worked just fine and didn't cato. Chock that up to sheer dumb luck. Afterwards, I mentioned it to somebody else, and they said, "Oh yeah, I got one of those motors too. The extra o-rings are grain spacers... I called Aerotech about it." Moral of the story: You can't always believe everything you read.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

I should hear about whether Aerotech will send the missing extended spacer tomorrow. I'm hopeful. While I'm waiting I decided to build a rocket for which I need no motor casing, assembly, SuperLube... The Estes Patriot was fun. I give myself a C on the finish, but I learned a lot. The red glazing compound (Bondo was what Lowes had) worked great as grain filler for the balsa fins. Bonding primer to the nose cone after washing, sanding, and rubbing with acetone. Rustoleum sandable primer over everything. All the surfaces were great except I zapped the red ring with a bit too much paint. I live. I learned. Looking forward to sneaking out to launch this next week (I have a flat 7 acre green space next to my house.). OR predictions are aligned with Estes: 300 feet on a B6. 600 feet on a C6. If all goes well, I'll order a some Quest and AT SU D engines...

 

[WizardOfBoz]

Yes, there's a "view worth the climb" question here. While I've already spend $200 on getting my Aerotech motor to work, the "sunk cost" decision analytics rule would tell me to ignore that and to do whatever costs least from where I stand right now. That is, buy another case or an SU motor or a Cesaroni case and motor. If I could find one, the H169 SU is only $46.99. But hazmat shipping costs $80 from Aerotech! Anyone in the Philly or Baltimore area know of a source? My targetted launch date is July 29th, for my L1 cert.

Even if I get an SU for my cert flight, I'd like to get value for the money I've spent. The customer facing guy at AeroTech apparently does not have enough organizational juice to approve sending a $10 part, so I'm waiting for his warranty manager to sign off. If that doesn't happen Monday or Tuesday, I'll order some 25mm od x 23.6 mm id aluminum and turn off the part on my lathe Q: Can anyone give me the exact length of the extended (longer) spacer from the RMS-29 reload adapter kit?. But the tubing comes from China and may take a couple of weeks so I won't have before the July 29th launch date.

I can say that waiting two weeks to hear back from AT management is not making me happy with Aerotech. This may just be a weird case for them, but this length of delay, for a $10 part, makes Aerotech look ridiculous and CTI look better and better.

/rant

 

[David_Stack]

Even if I get an SU for my cert flight, I'd like to get value for the money I've spent. The customer facing guy at AeroTech apparently does not have enough organizational juice to approve sending a $10 part, so I'm waiting for his warranty manager to sign off. If that doesn't happen Monday or Tuesday, I'll order some 25mm od x 23.6 mm id aluminum and turn off the part on my lathe Q: Can anyone give me the exact length of the extended (longer) spacer from the RMS-29 reload adapter kit?. But the tubing comes from China and may take a couple of weeks so I won't have before the July 29th launch date.

Not certain, but I think that would technically make your motor a non-certified 'research' motor, not eligible to be flown at a NAR launch...

 

[tsmith1315]

Can anyone give me the exact length of the extended (longer) spacer from the RMS-29 reload adapter kit?

I was under the impression that the 29mm RAS only came with the two standard spacers. That's what the description says on the AeroTech website, the wording enumerates 4 parts with their part numbers, and I think that's what I received when I bought mine.

But, and that's a big ol' but, the picture that accompanies the RAS description shows what appears to be another spacer, though it has a different finish that the two 29FCCS standard spacers, for a total of 5 parts in the picture. Hmm. In addition, I don't see that spacer available for à la carte purchase via the Aerotech site. That leads me to believe that it should be included in the RAS system.

Just to toss this out there- my experience with AT has been nothing but good, so I continue to buy their products and hardware after nearly 30 years .

I'll look at my RAS again to see if it's there...

 

[WizardOfBoz]

Thanks @David_Stack for pointing that out. I guess I could ask Tripoli to certify the motor with my longer spacer as an experimental motor...

Thanks @tsmith1315 for letting me know that I'm not crazy. Here is the picture of the kit from the site I bought it at (not mentioning them, as they did their job fine I think).


The longer extension is the one in the back, with the different color that you noted. If the Reload adapter kit was changed to not include the extended length spacer (which in addition to this marketing picture is clearly shown being used/needed in the Aerotech drawings, above), then the reload adapter kit becomes useless and this makes my RM-29/360 motor rather limited unless I want to use are a H268R-14 or an I200W-14A. This is a pretty limited choice - the reason I bought the adapter kit was to give me a range of options. Also, both motors are too hot for the site I'll be at with my Super DX3. So... useless.

I'm hoping to hear postively from AT on Monday. If not I'll have to figure something out. Either an SU, or a CTI casing and motor. I'm encouraged by your positive experience.

 

[Titan II]

I guess I could ask Tripoli to certify the motor with my longer spacer as an experimental motor.

You cannot certify with a research motor.

 

[Papa Elf]

Why not borrow a RMS 29/240 case to get your cert done? I am sure there is someone willing to lend you a case or a motor. No need to spend more money on another motor since you already have the H180. (Nice motor btw)

 

[tsmith1315]

I'll look at my RAS again to see if it's there

Indeed, it was included in my kit:

I'm hoping to hear postively from AT on Monday. If not I'll have to figure something out.

I don’t have a 29/360 case. Even if I did, I have a 240 anyway, so I don’t need the long spacer.

PM your address and I’ll send it your way.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

Tim,
PM sent. But as I mentioned in my note for now let's see if AT will address this. If so, no need to trouble you. But your offer is very kind, and very much appreciated. If AT fails, I'll be in contact again.
Jim

 

[WizardOfBoz]

@Papa Elf Thanks. Yes, I will do this if I can't get a spacer. But Tim has offered, even if AT should come through. If I do get the extended spacer, I'm good. If not I'll reach out and see if I can borrow a 240 case. Or, worst case, order an SU and pay the HAZMAT fee. The bad thing about that, since I'm getting L1 certified, I can only order one motor and cant amortize that large few over a lot of motors.

Regarding the H180, I'm glad I got a cool motor, thanks for the encouragement!

 

[Papa Elf]

Here is the last time I flew the Mighty H180

 

[WizardOfBoz]

@Papa Elf , cool launch. I look forward to my launch (it will be a Super DX3 which is bigger and heavier, so slower and lower, which is actually what I want for my L1).

 

[Papa Elf]

Hope your launch goes well . You ever attend SPAAR launches?

 

[jmasterj]

Looks like you'll be set between either AT or @tsmith1315.

But just so you don't try, you can't certify with Tripoli with an EX motor, has to be certified for a cert flight.

 

[mtnmanak]

Anyone in the Philly or Baltimore area know of a source? My targetted launch date is July 29th, for my L1 cert.

29 July is a Monday - are you talking about the 27-28 JUL MDRA launch at the Central Sod Farm?

If so, I would recommend trying to get ahold of Kenny from Performance Hobbies and see if he is going to be at the launch. He usually has some DMS H motors on hand.
https://performancehobbies.com/

[email protected]

If you drive up to a METRA launch (next one is 3-4 AUG), @cbrarick is usually there and has just about any DMS motor you could want. If, for some reason, Rick is not there, Teddy from Onebadhawk is also usually there and has motors.

https://metrarocketclub.org/launch-schedule/

 

[cbrarick]

I'll be there. Oh, by the way for those looking for CTI I still have a bunch

 

[Art Upton]

Looks like you'll be set between either AT or @tsmith1315.

But just so you don't try, you can't certify with Tripoli with an EX motor, has to be certified for a cert flight.

It is even more than that. You have to be L2 certified to even fly an EX motor with TRA.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

You cannot certify with a research motor.

Ahhh. Catch 22. It's crazy to remain in a war zone. So you should be sent home on a section 8. But if you ask to be sent home, you are clearly thinking straight and are not crazy - and you cannot be sent home...

If you wish to certify with a proper motor, you're good. If the motor is not complete, you can't certify. If you say "but I can fix this motor so that it works as well as the original", you'd have a motor that is good, but can't be used....

Titan II, you'd think that they'd cut me a little slack and give me credit for initiative....

But, Titan II and Art Upton, don't worry. I'm not going to pull out the Hobart planetary dough mixer and fabricate a class O from 50 lbs of AP and other additives. We'll go the more orthodox route and get the cert in a proper way. All my rockets will be launched with off-the-shelf engines for now.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

I'll be there. Oh, by the way for those looking for CTI I still have a bunch

Alas, it's about a 4 hour drive from CT to where I live, west of Philly. But out of curiosity, do you have anything in the low H range? I'm launching a Madcow Super DX3 (about 4kg) and want the launch to be low.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

29 July is a Monday - are you talking about the 27-28 JUL MDRA launch at the Central Sod Farm?

Ah, yeah, the 27th is the date. And it is the MDRA launch. I'll write to Ken at Performance, thanks.
To those who asked about other sites: METRA (Pine Island) is over a 3 hour drive
SPAAR is only a bit longer drive (2 hr vs 1.5 hours) than Centreville MD (MDRA). But I was told that MDRA would be the place to get certified. Certainly I've gotten kind, encouraging and useful advice from Dennis (Tripoli Prefect). But I do have three rockets built and none tested, so I may have to travel a bit to get everything in the air at least once.
Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Titan II]

But, Titan II and Art Upton, don't worry. I'm not going to pull out the Hobart planetary dough mixer and fabricate a class O from 50 lbs of AP and other additives.

Not worried at all. I could care less, and think the whole certification process ridiculous. I just find it facinating that people do not read the rules.

 

[Art Upton]

I remember when I just flew an H70 in a Big Brute, but now I could buy any motor on the tables in 1989.

That was a long walk into another state however to get the rocket, and it was in Corn Rows while I was wearing cowboy boots
But it was not snowing up to my knees and uphill both ways

TRA #492

 

[mtnmanak]

Ah, yeah, the 27th is the date. And it is the MDRA launch. I'll write to Ken at Performance, thanks.
To those who asked about other sites: METRA (Pine Island) is over a 3 hour drive
SPAAR is only a bit longer drive (2 hr vs 1.5 hours) than Centreville MD (MDRA). But I was told that MDRA would be the place to get certified. Certainly I've gotten kind, encouraging and useful advice from Dennis (Tripoli Prefect). But I do have three rockets built and none tested, so I may have to travel a bit to get everything in the air at least once.
Thanks for all the advice.

Yep, METRA is definitely farther away, but it would be a good alternative if, for some reason, MDRA doesn't work out.

Flying at MDRA is awesome and the Central Sod Farm is one of the best places you can go to do a Level 1 cert flight. METRA is just as nice (also a big sod farm), but would add a solid hour to your drive. It may be worth a trip up to METRA sometime, though, if you are looking to get motors without paying for HAZMAT fees since the vendors on-site at METRA pretty much always carry a full line of AT, CTI and Loki motors.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

@mtnmanak all good info. I'd like to visit. Let's see if I qualify, or if my 1st attempt becomes a large tent stake...
Thanks for reaching out.