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TwoWalks

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Well after three weeks I have completed four rockets except for paint. The other day my wife and I went into the hobby store and I ended up with Four more rocket kits.

1. Estes Explorer "Condor"
2. Estes StormCaster
3. Estes Big Bertha
4. Estes Big Daddy

Can you tell the hobby store only had Estes?

Any way, I have found a couple neet up grades for the Big Bertha and got to wondering: "Has anyone lengthened the Big Daddy?" "If so, how much did you lengthen it? How did it workout?
 

powderburner

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The body tube used in the Big Daddy is not a standard Estes BT size, and I have not seen it available anywhere (other than in a Big Daddy kit), so it's kinda hard to lengthen the basic rocket.
The closest 3 inch BT that I had did not fit the Estes NC very well, so I just gave up and built mine stock---again.

I did do one kitbash with a BD, but I lengthened it at the other end. I flared it out to a new diam and put it on top of a bigger BT. I was not real pleased with how it turned out, looks-wise.

Let us know how yours comes out!
 

Fore Check

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Originally posted by TwoWalks
Well after three weeks I have completed four rockets except for paint. The other day my wife and I went into the hobby store and I ended up with Four more rocket kits.

1. Estes Explorer "Condor"
2. Estes StormCaster
3. Estes Big Bertha
4. Estes Big Daddy

Can you tell the hobby store only had Estes?

Any way, I have found a couple neet up grades for the Big Bertha and got to wondering: "Has anyone lengthened the Big Daddy?" "If so, how much did you lengthen it? How did it workout?
The best mod you can do to your Big Daddy is to use a pair of digital calipers and measure the inside diameter of that non-standard body tube and call Balsa Machining to make you some custom 1/8" ply centering rings to make it 3 x E Engine cluster powered.

Lengthening the rocket may very well detract from its stability. Modify it for three or four 24mm motor mounts long enough for E engines, build it, and swing test. Add a little nose weight if necessary.

NOTE: I've seen a 3 x "E" engine Big daddy fly with no other mods (including no added nose weight) and you will NOT be disappointed. NICE!
 

powderburner

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Fore Check,
That has got to be the best idea I have heard yet for an extra Big Daddy. I'll bet that thing really cooks with a 3E conversion!
Are you SURE they didn't add any nose weight?
What did they use for thermal protection on the leading edges?
 

cls

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on Monday, James Marino flew his stock-looking Big Daddy, which starts on a 29mm F (I think) and air starts 2 C6-0s. the electronics for the airstart are in the nose cone.

it was awesome!


oh and take your time getting the gliders for your ARV Condor trimmed up, you won't be disappointed.
 

Fore Check

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Originally posted by powderburner
Fore Check,
That has got to be the best idea I have heard yet for an extra Big Daddy. I'll bet that thing really cooks with a 3E conversion!
Are you SURE they didn't add any nose weight?
What did they use for thermal protection on the leading edges?
I'm not certain that no nose weight was added - but it was not mentioned by the owner either. The only mod he pointed out was multiplying the motor mount by 3, set it up for E engines, and use a custom ring. The body tube was stock length.

For this reason, I would build it like that and swing test it. Would be pretty easy to add nose weight to that stock plastic nc if necessary.

I bet it only got 1000' or so, but it sure was cool!
 

Fore Check

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BTW powderburner:

What do you mean by "thermal protection on the leading edges"???
 

jawa

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I am thinking that was a joke, lol...

- Jason
 

loopy

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I built my Big Daddy fairly stock, but replaced the motor tube with a LOC motor tube, and E length motor hook, basswood fins, and Kevlar leader on the recovery system. I plan on flying it with 24mm reloads when I get my hands on some. Love the Big Daddy!
 

TwoWalks

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Some great replies ... thanks to everyone.

I think the answer to upgrade that fits my thinking is: Custom CRings with a 3x engine cluster.

If I am right a 3xE would give the power of a G?
Would it make sence to do a 3x D cluster?

Interested in Powderburners reply about "thermal protection on the leading edges".

Had not opened the BD kit yet and even if I had I would not have realized its not a standard 3" tube. Learned something that probably saved me some frustration trying to figure out why the tubes would not mate up. :)
 

sandman

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Do the 3xE conversion and get or make 3 1" spacers out of some spent motor casings.

Then you can use either 3 E's or 3 D's

Actually mine flys really sweet on just one E.

sandman
 

powderburner

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Originally posted by Fore Check
What do you mean by "thermal protection on the leading edges"???

Um, err, that's sort of engineering humor. Don't blink or you'll miss it.
Jawa is wise to me.
I was just being a little enthusiastic/sarcastic about this thing going so fast that the fin leading edges (and nose cone tip) might start to char, or melt. Ha ha ha. Ha ha. Ahem. I'll be quiet now.

Two Walks, the power of three Estes E's will fall a bit short of G. Remember that these motors are really only D & 1/2 (around 30 N-s, not the full-rated 40 that a maximum E would be). So three of these things would really only be just a notch beyond a fully rated F (the three combined would be around 90 N-s, whereas an F motor falls in the 40 to 80 N-s range). Still, I think it would put on quite a show, and I am already planning to try one.
 

TwoWalks

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Originally posted by powderburner
Still, I think it would put on quite a show, and I am already planning to try one.
Powderburner, the 3xE's it is .. and .. I will take your advice Sandman and make the adapters to use the D's, that way I get both worlds. Thanks, made some notes today and put them on the BD kit.
 

TwoWalks

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After writing the above reply I got to thinking about it. The 3xE sounds good and I am going to go ahead with it, what I got to thinking about was what I had originally planned to do with the Big Bertha and realized that the BD might be even better for it. interchangeable motor mounts, like used in Better Bertha and Bad Bertha. By using an interchangeable motor mount system, I could switch from single motors to clusters of different #'s and sizes. Just really thinking out loud here.
 

powderburner

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Yes, that sounds like a good idea. It also gives you a chance to exercise the creative juices and come up with a slick way to swap mounts.

OTOH, Big Daddy kits come pretty cheap at half price, and it gets pretty attractive to just build a different version with a permanent motor mount (WARNING: following this philosophy has gotten me into predicaments where I had as many as six Fat Boys at the same time).
 

rocwizard

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wouldn't it make more sence to do a 4-E cluster since it has 4 fins? ;)
 

Larry

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I found out the Big Daddy flies great with the 24/40 reload system. The E28 is perfect. I've also flown it on F12s. Mucho better than D engines. No mods either. Balsa fins, no worries:D :D
Larry
 

TwoWalks

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Originally posted by rocwizard
wouldn't it make more sence to do a 4-E cluster since it has 4 fins? ;)
Could be - then again I'm new too all this so:

Every thing makes sence to me
and
Nothing makes sence to me at the same time :D
 

NewEntity1

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Well, the order I placed with A2Z two weeks ago still hasn't arrived (though they did answer my e-mail a couple days ago), so yesterday I went to the nearest hobby store, Covina Hobby, to see what they had available. Surprisingly, they actually did carry a few rockets! Most were just E2Xs, but they did have one Big Daddy and a Phoenix kit :)

Since I haven't even had the opportunity to try building the rockets I bought from A2Z yet, I felt the Phoenix to be a bit above what I was ready to try yet, so I bought the Big Daddy.

I work 2 jobs, but one of those jobs is at a college which is closing down for the Holidays come Sunday, so I'll have a fair amount of time over the next week+ to work on building rockets :D

I'm still hoping the Big Bertha and other items I ordered from A2Z will arrive sometime during the next week, so I was thinking of building the motor mount that came with the Big Daddy stock, but using it in the Big Bertha when it arrives. I would then take a longer, stronger 24mm mount, like those fliskits sells, and use that in the big daddy.

Being able to fly the Bertha on just C11s and D12s is fine --its pretty light, but I would like to be able to fly the Daddy on both D12s and E9s. I assume to be able to do that (without swappable motor mounts) would be to use a spacer tube like mentioned above? Or is there a more elegant solution?
 

TwoWalks

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Originally posted by NewEntity1
I would like to be able to fly the Daddy on both D12s and E9s. I assume to be able to do that (without swappable motor mounts) would be to use a spacer tube like mentioned above? Or is there a more elegant solution?
Often I learn first by saying something dumb and then remembering the corrections I hear from people so here it goes.

Most D's are 18mm so the 1" spacer where as the D12 is a 24mm so no spacer would be needed. This is based on a chart I got off the net yesterday, not from actual knowledge, so I will now learn from any correction if I am not correct in this. :)
 

rocket trike

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You will need a spacer for the D motors even though they are 24mm. The D motor is shorter then the E motorThe spacer that you will need will be to make the D motor as long as the E motor.
 

Zippy

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Estes D's and E's are both 24mm diameter. D's are 2.75" long while E's are 3.75" long. The 1" long spacer (cut up expended engine) is used on top of a D if you build the MMT to accept an E and you used a motor block. The Aerotech composite 24mm engines are all (I think!) 2.75" long and need a 12 volt control.
The composites ROCK but the Estes E is also a lot of fun.
 

TwoWalks

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Thanks, I think I will look for another chart on engine sizes. Any good recommendation for a chart?
 

Steward

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Originally posted by powderburner

What did they use for thermal protection on the leading edges? [/B]





Wait...!!! Now I'm really cornfused...!!!

Do they make those "heat" type tiles like the "big guys" have... for our model rockets...???
Aren't they sorta heavy...???
Wow...I gotta start gettin' bigger motors...!!!

LOL!!!
 

NewEntity1

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Most D's are 18mm so the 1" spacer where as the D12 is a 24mm so no spacer would be needed. This is based on a chart I got off the net yesterday, not from actual knowledge, so I will now
learn from any correction if I am not correct in this.
The 1" space is to deal with the difference In length between the D12 and the E9. Both are 24mm diameter, but the E9 is (almost?) an inch longer.

Now for things I'm less certain about myself...

Putting an E9 in a motor mount meant for a D12 woud leave the motor hanging out the end a fair distance, which isn't critical, but is kinda ugly looking :D. Worse, putting a D12 into a mount meant for an E9 would have the end of the motor buried more than half an inch inside the rocket.

Please take what I'm saying with a grain of salt though...I could be way off base on some point here. We need some of the experts on this forum to chime in with their input ;)
 

NewEntity1

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Oops...I didn't notice a second page had formed on this thread :eek: :eek: :eek:

Looks like at least 3 other people already responded, heh :p

Any way I can delete my message above?

And thanks, Zippy, for clearing up what a spacer is actually made of...I hadn't thought of that :p . It sounds like just the e-length clip would be needed as well, since the spacer would push the D12 down onto the e-length clip.

I didn't know that the Aerotech moters were only 2.75" though. Given this new insight, I might consider building the Big Daddy's motor mount stock, and use Aerotech motors when I want to use an E-load.

I imagine Aerotech is able to fit their Es into a smaller package (and despite the fact that the Estes E isn't even a full E), because the AP fuel used in the Aerotechs is more energetic than black powder, resulting in greater total impulse for a given mass of propellant. I'm no expert on Model rockets, but I did spend 2 years in Aerospace engineering at Cal Poly Pomona, before "personal life issues" forced me to abandon serious schooling for a long, long time :eek: . Of course, I've also forgotten nearly all of what I learned in engineering back then , as well :D
 

Zippy

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NewEntity1,

Yup an E length clip would be nice. I hate tape fitting myself and use clips on all low power models including staged ones. Thanks for bringing that up couse I forgot the clip would have to be changed or at least bent out at the top.

I've never bought an AeroTech 24mm yet since I've been playing with 29's for all my non-blackpowder needs. Most 24mm's are 2.75" but apparently F and G's are longer. I think for many LPR rockets an F or G would tear the fins off anyway unless they were way overbuilt.

I don't think you can actually delete a post, but you can edit the heck out of it. Just click on the edit button in the lower right hand corner of your own post. I know it saved me a few times! In fact I've editted this post three times now. Once to break up run on paragraphs, once to write this and once for the exclamation point at the end. All hail the edit button!

Zippy
 

TwoWalks

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Now I think I could possibly be confuse.

Estes 24mm D12 and E's are different lengths, 2.75" & 3."?

Estes 24mm D12 and Aerotech Es are the same length, 2.75" - 70mm?
 

Zippy

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No your not confused.
Estes D's 2.75" (70mm)
Estes E's 3.75"

AeroTech E's 2.75"
Way more punch in a small package becouse it's composite fuel instead of blackpowder. They also tend to "roar" rather than "whoosh" or "hiss". They also cost way more.

Zippy
 
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