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kuririn

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The source you are citing is a Pseudo science and conspiracy website.
For example, they promote anti vaccination propaganda and misinformation on climate change.
They have claimed that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas.
You REALLY need to cite more credible sources, not a fringe site in the UK, if you want to present a more convincing case.
Try again.

For, as Karl Popper advocated, any hypothesis that does not make testable predictions is simply not science. Such a hypothesis may be useful or valuable, but it cannot be said to be science.
It is PSI's claims that cannot be said to be science.
 

Pat Gordzelik

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O Lord. I see I have stirred up the climate change zealot ideology. I suppose it 'IS' Sunday.
I believe in climate change. It changes 4 times a year in my neck of the woods, and has been changing as
far back as the dinosaur era, even before Gore. But the hypothesis that man can control the weather is a little
too far fetched for me.

I am going to drop commenting on this thread. Don't want to get burned at the stake in Salem.

As they say in jolly ole England,

Tah tah...
 

boatgeek

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Greetings friends and Sheila's!

(sheila's are what I call cowards who hide behind fake names and attempt to drown out voices of dissension).

Never did I say Covid 19 was not a deadly disease. It is, and worthy of concern. My position is and always will be that there are two sides of every discussion/debate. To see situations where a different point of view is drowned out, like was noted here by a
commentator, is indeed, painful. You will notice I do not quote what someone posted, I merely let my observations stand on there own merits.

For consideration is yet another observation for your review.

Science is one way humanity searches for truth. The Covid-19 panic and response are a direct assault on what remains of science. All of the hysteria and the political reaction to it are driven by models and projections, which are nothing more than hypotheses.
It is said that models are only as good as the underlying data and assumptions they incorporate, but that’s misleading. They may use the best available data and assumptions and still be wildly off the mark. For any model of a complex phenomenon—the weather, the climate, financial markets, or the progression of a disease—substitute “our best guess” for the word “model” and you have a better understanding of what the model actually is.
So here is a link of my observation. I must in all fairness warn any snowflakes out there
who believe they can harm, shame, beat me up, bang drums outside my door, chastise me on useless mediums like Twitter, Instagram, facebook, ad nauseam, that it is a futile gesture. I do not utilize mediums that produce nothing, add nothing to the human condition, nor reimburses me for time wasted.
Principia Scientific International is a self-sustaining community of impartial scientists from around the world deliberating, debating and publishing cutting-edge thinking on a range of issues without a preconceived idea of outcomes.
PSI has identified that there are currently two opposing methodologies at conflict:
Traditional scientific method: borne of the Age of Enlightenment and which gave rise to the technological advances of the industrial revolution.
Post-normalism:* pre-deterministic approach where policy and outcome dictate the kind of ‘science’ needed to justify it. Perceived as the most culpable purveyors of this modern malaise are national governments, NGO’s and big corporations.
PSI ASSOCIATES are steadfast in their support of the traditional scientific method as encapsulated in the ideas of Karl Popper. PSI opposes post-normalism and endeavors to provide society with an antidote (from the Greek αντιδιδοναι antididonai, “given against”) to the seemingly gargantuan and pervasive rise of post-normal science by way of our publishing, educational and media-focused materials and presentations. For, as Karl Popper advocated, any hypothesis that does not make testable predictions is simply not science. Such a hypothesis may be useful or valuable, but it cannot be said to be science.
I am immediately suspicious of a group of scientists who say that they are impartial, in much the same way as I’m suspicious of food products with “food” in the title (eg “cheese food”). They wouldn’t need to tell you if it was obvious from the product. The same goes for scientists or politicians who are absolutely sure that they are the only ones who are right.
 

dr wogz

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I believe the term "collective" plays a part in these conversations..

An individual will have an idea, an opinion, a statement.. but unless it's supported or backed up, or proven by a group of equally educated peers (of said field of study) it's meaningless.
 

OverTheTop

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FYI here is some data from Australia. Our state, Victoria, is spiking. We have had 191 new cases today alone and this is the highest number of cases in one day ever. Melbourne is now entirely back into lockdown, not just the limited number of suburbs we had up to today. That is around five million people.

Some more data and state-by-state data are in the article here:
 
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modeltrains

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That bit in the above;
A lot of people are about to go from “poor” to “disabled”.
The people most likely to contract coronavirus are the workers who have to interact with the public every day - not only nurses and doctors, but grocery store workers, delivery people, ride-sharing and taxi drivers, transit workers and janitorial staff. Those who survive are at risk of life-long complications of coronavirus, including permanently reduced lung capacity - that’s not great when you need to work a physically demanding job. A lot of people are about to find themselves in a situation where they are no longer able to do their jobs due to a virus that they contracted because of their jobs.
Brings to mind;
Why Do Some Recover From COVID-19 Quickly, While Others Seem Likely To Face Long-Term Disability?
June 5, 2020
  • Mady Hornig
  • David Tuller
https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20200603.471204/full/
Never in the modern scientific era have so many people been infected with the same virus in such a short period of time. And if the history of medicine is a guide, a proportion of COVID-19 survivors will not fully recover and will develop disabling and chronic neurological dysfunctions and other disorders.


In recent decades, outbreaks of other infectious diseases—such as Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) and Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS), both also arising from coronaviruses, as well as West Nile virus, H1N1 influenza, and Ebola—have been followed by a range of long-term complaints. These have included, among others, severe muscle pain; headaches; loss of balance; paralyzing fatigue; and declines in memory, concentration, and other cognitive functions. Yet, we know very little about why most patients get better from episodes of infectious disease while a smaller number continue to suffer from troubling and sometimes devastating symptoms.
 

afadeev

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43 Florida ICUs (in 21 counties) are at capacity with another 35 at 90%+ capacity. 16.7% of tests are positive, so it's not just increased testing.
Of course it's not just testing.
But good news, our Don Quixote leader has proclaimed that 99% of CV19 "cases are totally harmless”:
 

dr wogz

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I believe you (the US) have just reached / passed 3 million infected.. that means ..1% of the US is a Covid carrier?

(A Canadian news source cited but unconfirmed. )
 

jmuck78

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The idea that "people of color" or "women" or whatever your favorite way of dividing human beings into groups are "disproportionately" affected will ALWAYS be the case with anything, and it's a transparently political way of trying to claim that some groups are more important than others or that some groups are more deserving of aid or sympathy. There is no disaster, short of a supernova, that won't have a "disproportionate" affect on some group or another because human characteristics are not uniformly distributed. This line of propaganda is divisive and is doing real harm. It needs to stop.
 

Bill S

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jmuck78, its the "never let a crisis go to waste" mentality in action, and you're right, its divisive and not helpful.
 

CalebJ

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I'd argue that it's an opportunity to see where real disparity exists and make strides to deal with it. Forget politics, it's just a window into the real things affecting society and we'd be remiss not to seek out solutions.
 

afadeev

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The idea that "people of color" or "women" or whatever your favorite way of dividing human beings into groups are "disproportionately" affected will ALWAYS be the case with anything, and it's a transparently political way of trying to claim that some groups are more important than others or that some groups are more deserving of aid or sympathy.
Could be.
Or it could be a reflection of reality.
Could also be an attempt to collect data on the efficacy of various medical approaches to different population groups, and adjusting the treatment to each group, as appropriate. There is a long history of medical SNAFUs of inappropriately applying the same treatment methods and dosage to males vs. females, different ethnic groups, etc, etc.
Could also be an attempt to identify groups in need of other forms of assistance, so that it can be applied effectively.

You deduce political intent from raw data observations.
Perhaps that speaks more to your personal political biases and pain points, then those that were present in the data?

This line of propaganda is divisive and is doing real harm. It needs to stop.
Do tells us more about your fears!
 

NateB

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I'd argue that it's an opportunity to see where real disparity exists and make strides to deal with it. Forget politics, it's just a window into the real things affecting society and we'd be remiss not to seek out solutions.
Exactly, let the data speak for itself and any disparities should be looked into objectively. That said, don't let the media, politicians, and social media "experts" read into the data and create problems that don't exist.
 

jmuck78

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I'd argue that it's an opportunity to see where real disparity exists and make strides to deal with it. Forget politics, it's just a window into the real things affecting society and we'd be remiss not to seek out solutions.
I didn't say disparity doesn't exist, I said it always exists, everywhere. Any law, any disaster, any pandemic is going to have a disparate impact on some group over another, and it's fairly easy to arbitrarily divide a population and show that the two populations are affected differently; if you choose to emphasize data only when population B is adversely affected, that's divisive and pre-meditated.
 

CalebJ

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And you're still missing the point. The divides already exist, we don't create them by looking into the numbers. We just understand them better and what we can (and should) do about them.

It's not about politics or creating divisions.
 

jmuck78

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Could be.
Or it could be a reflection of reality.
Could also be an attempt to collect data on the efficacy of various medical approaches to different population groups, and adjusting the treatment to each group, as appropriate. There is a long history of medical SNAFUs of inappropriately applying the same treatment methods and dosage to males vs. females, different ethnic groups, etc, etc.
Could also be an attempt to identify groups in need of other forms of assistance, so that it can be applied effectively.

You deduce political intent from raw data observations.
The appellation "People of Color" is a political appellation, not a scientific one. If the intent of these statistics were to show how simple medical procedures may impact one ethnic group over another, what "ethnic" group is described by "people of color"?
 

jmuck78

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And you're still missing the point. The divides already exist, we don't create them by looking into the numbers. We just understand them better and what we can (and should) do about them.

It's not about politics or creating divisions.
You are missing the point. The divides exist in a thousand different ways; you have to decide which ones to emphasize. You have to decide how to group people in order to divide a population and identify a disparity that is based on the characteristic you chose. "People of Color" is a divide someone had to create in order to generate statistics and identify a statistic disparity.
 

CalebJ

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And yet your response appears to be choosing not to evaluate those differences at all. That's not a response. It's a choice to ignore.
 

jmuck78

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And yet your response appears to be choosing not to evaluate those differences at all. That's not a response. It's a choice to ignore.
OK, evaluate the difference for me. There is a virus that affects humans; humans of African Descent in the US are 16% of the population, represent 24% of positive test cases, and 20% of deaths. Would it be valid for me to report a statistic that shows they were more or less likely to wear masks correctly or more or less likely to social distance or more or less likely to wash their hands for at least 20 seconds? The answers to those questions might provide an answer that would save lives, but people are punished and labeled for asking them. Which questions am I allowed to ask if I were generally interested in looking for a cause that might save lives here?

If you identify a disparity based on an arbitrary characteristic - in this case skin color - then restrict the rationales available that might correlate to the disparity, what is the point? The game here has been to point to the disparity and the rule out - summarily - any scientific investigation that might illuminate the reasons for the disparity, except the one pre-determined, pre-approved rationale.
 

CalebJ

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If that were true, you might be onto something.
 

kuririn

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If you identify a disparity based on an arbitrary characteristic - in this case skin color - then restrict the rationales available that might correlate to the disparity, what is the point? The game here has been to point to the disparity and the rule out - summarily - any scientific investigation that might illuminate the reasons for the disparity, except the one pre-determined, pre-approved rationale.
I have read reports in the main stream media about how blacks and hispanics are "disproportionately" affected by the virus. None of those reports cite a reason. Frankly, I don't think anyone knows yet. Could be genetic, could be cultural, could be socio-economic, could be a combination of the above.
What I haven't seen is the "pre-determined, pre-approved rationale" you speak of.
Could you clarify?
Maybe provide some links from credible sources?
 

modeltrains

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The following is of great interest to me as a person who has CFS/ME, among half a dozen other neurological, endocrine, mitochondrial, musculoskeletal, things,

Letter to the Editor

We are writing to highlight the potential for a post-viral syndrome to manifest following COVID-19 infection as previously reported following Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) infection, also a coronavirus [1]. After the acute SARS episode some patients, many of whom were healthcare workers went on to develop a Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) – like illness which nearly 20 months on prevented them returning to work [2]. We propose that once an acute COVID-19 infection has been overcome, a subgroup of remitted patients are likely to experience long-term adverse effects resembling CFS/ME symptomatology such as persistent fatigue, diffuse myalgia, depressive symptoms, and non-restorative sleep.

Post-mortem SARS research indicated the virus had crossed the blood brain barrier into the hypothalamus via the olfactory pathway [2]. The pathway of the virus seemed to follow that previously suggested in CFS/ME patients, involving disturbance of lymphatic drainage from the microglia in the brain [3].One of the main pathways of the lymphatic drainage of the brain is via the perivascular spaces along the olfactory nerves through the cribriform plate into the nasal mucosa [4]. If the pathogenesis of coronavirus affects a similar pathway, it could explain the anosmia observed in a proportion of COVID-19 patients.

This disturbance leads to a build-up of pro-inflammatory agents, especially post-infectious cytokines such as interferon gamma, and interleukin 7 [5], which have been hypothesized to affect the neurological control of the ‘Glymphatic System’ as observed in CFS/ME [3]. The build up of cytokines in the Central Nervous System (CNS) may lead to post viral symptoms due to pro-inflammatory cytokines passing through the blood brain barrier in circumventricular organs such as the hypothalamus, leading to autonomic dysfunction manifesting acutely as a high fever and in the longer term to dysregulation of the sleep/wake cycle, cognitive dysfunction and profound unremitting anergia, all characteristic of CFS/ME. As happened after the SARS outbreak, a proportion of COVID-19 affected patients may go on to develop a severe post viral syndrome we term ‘Post COVID-19 Syndrome’ – a long term state of chronic fatigue characterised by post-exertional neuroimmune exhaustion [6].

Clinically, one of the authors (RP) has already seen a patient with possible post COVID-19 syndrome. ...
From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7320866/

Med Hypotheses. 2020 Nov; 144: 110055. Published online 2020 Jun 27. doi: 10.1016/j.mehy.2020.110055
PMCID: PMC7320866
Into the looking glass: Post-viral syndrome post COVID-19
Ray Perrin, Lisa Riste, and Mark Hann
The School of Medicine and Manchester Academic Health Sciences Centre, Manchester University, UK
Andreas Walther
The University of Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland
Annice Mukherjee
The School of Medicine and Manchester Academic Health Sciences Centre, Manchester University, UK
Adrian Heald⁎
The School of Medicine and Manchester Academic Health Sciences Centre, Manchester University, UK
Department of Endocrinology and Diabetes, Salford Royal Hospital, Salford, UK
And that little data nugget,

... dysregulation of the sleep/wake cycle, cognitive dysfunction and profound unremitting anergia, all characteristic of CFS/ME.
is a seriously un-fun life to be living; can tell you that from personal experience I'd rather not have been having for the last two decades.
 
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modeltrains

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See also: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/racial-ethnic-minorities.html

History shows that severe illness and death rates tend to be higher for racial and ethnic minority populations during public health emergencies than for other populations. Addressing the needs of these populations in emergencies includes improving day-to-day life and harnessing the strengths of these groups. Shared faith, family, and cultural institutions are common sources of social support. These institutions can empower and encourage individuals and communities to take action to prevent the spread of COVID-19, care for those who become sick, and help community members cope with stress.

CDC has developed resources to help local resources to help local communities, schools, faith-based organizations and other groups and the people they serve during a pandemic.
...
Why Racial and Ethnic Minority Groups are at Increased Risk During COVID-19
Health differences between racial and ethnic groups result from inequities in living, working, health, and social conditions that have persisted across generations. In public health emergencies, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, these conditions can also isolate people from the resources they need to prepare for and respond to outbreaks.
Living conditions
For many people from racial and ethnic minority groups, living conditions can contribute to health conditions and make it harder to follow steps to prevent getting sick with COVID-19 or to seek care if they do get sick.
  • Many members of racial and ethnic minorities may be more likely to live in densely populated areas because of institutional racism in the form of residential housing segregation. In addition, overcrowding is more likely in tribal reservation homes and Alaska Native villages, compared to the rest of the nation. People living in densely populated areas and homes may find it harder to practice social distancing.
  • Racial housing segregation is linked to health conditions, such as asthma and other underlying medical conditions, that put people at increased risk of getting severely ill or dying from COVID-19. Some communities with higher numbers of racial and ethnic minorities have higher levels of exposure to pollution and other environmental hazards.
  • Reservation homes are more likely to lack complete plumbing when compared to the rest of the nation. This may make handwashing and disinfection harder.
  • Many members of racial and ethnic minority groups live in neighborhoods that are farther from grocery stores and medical facilities, or may lack safe and reliable transportation, making it harder to stock up on supplies that would allow them to stay home and to receive care if sick.
  • Some members of racial and ethnic minority groups may be more likely to rely on public transportation, which may make it challenging to practice social distancing
  • People living in multigenerational households and multi-family households (which are more common among some racial and ethnic minority groups), may find it hard to protect older family members or isolate those who are sick if space in the household is limited.
  • Some racial and ethnic minority groups are over-represented in jails, prisons, homeless shelters, and detention centers, where people live, work, eat, study, and recreate within congregate environments, which can make it difficult to slow the spread of COVID-19.
Work circumstances
Some types of work and workplace policies can put workers at increased risk of getting COVID-19. Members of some racial and ethnic minority groups are more likely to work in these conditions. Examples include:
  • Being an essential worker: The risk of infection may be greater for workers in essential industries, such as health care, meat-packing plants, grocery stores, and factories. These workers must be at the job site despite outbreaks in their communities, and some may need to continue working in these jobs because of their economic circumstances.
  • Not having sick leave: Workers without paid sick leave may be more likely to keep working when they are sick.
  • Income, education, and joblessness: On average, racial and ethnic minorities earn less than non-Hispanic whites, have less accumulated wealth, have lower levels of educational attainment, and have higher rates of joblessness. These factors can each affect the quality of the social and physical conditions in which people live, learn, work, and play, and can have an impact on health outcomes.
Health circumstances
Health and healthcare inequities affect many racial and ethnic minority groups. Some of these inequities can put people at increased risk of getting severely ill and dying from COVID-19.
  • Compared to non-Hispanic whites, Hispanics are almost 3 times as likely to be uninsured, and non-Hispanic blacks are almost twice as likely to be uninsured. In all age groups, blacks are more likely than non-Hispanic whites to report not being able to see a doctor in the past year because of cost. In 2017, almost 3 times as many American Indians and Alaska Natives had no health insurance coverageexternal icon compared to non-Hispanic whites.
  • People may not receive care because of distrust of the healthcare system, language barriers, or cost of missing work.
  • Compared to non-Hispanic whites, blacks experience higher rates of chronic conditions at earlier ages and higher death rates. Similarly, American Indian and Alaska Native adults are more likely to have obesity, have high blood pressure, and smoke cigarettes than non-Hispanic white adults. These underlying medical conditions may put people at increased risk for severe illness.
  • Racism, stigma, and systemic inequities undermine prevention efforts, increase levels of chronic and toxic stress, and ultimately sustain health and healthcare inequities.
 

OverTheTop

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is a seriously un-fun life to be living; can tell you that from personal experience I'd rather not have been having for the last two decades.
Wow. A couple of decades of CFS. That sucks big time. Having to plan even small tasks days ahead must be wearing a bit thin by now. I had it for 6.5 years. Glad I eventually got rid of it. Mine was virally triggered by IM. Was made redundant at work (not from CFS cause) and had nine months off. Took things really easy and managed to largely shake the CFS. I still have to be a little careful I don't overdo things, but is is very forgiving now. It used to be quite savage if I did too much.
 

modeltrains

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Wow. A couple of decades of CFS. That sucks big time. Having to plan even small tasks days ahead must be wearing a bit thin by now.
Thanks and it does. Sucks even worse for my Dad, in early/mid 1980s he was one of the first and I think the actual literal first USN medical retirement with CFS and fibromyalgia after a bunch of military doctors in northern Virginia taking several years to try to find out what was happening to the guy.
Then about 20 years later it nailed me.
In between us, MS finally forced his 16 years younger little sister out of her nursing career.
Something is going on in this genetic line and hits people in their early 40s.
My brother seems to have escaped it, and his 3 boys aren't yet 40, and I have no children.
 

modeltrains

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While we're talking about differences, https://futurism.com/neoscope/scientists-dont-know-covid19-men-women-differently

When the coronavirus pandemic began, doctors quickly realized that the disease seemed to be hitting men harder — and killing them at higher rates — than it did women.

But even now, several months later, scientists still aren’t sure why that is, Wired reports. Researchers at Harvard’s GenderSci Lab are trying to get to the bottom of the complicated question, which was made even more difficult by the lack of standardized data and case reports about COVID-19.

“We began by just simply trying to look for the data, and we couldn’t find it,” Sarah Richardson, a history of science professor who runs the GenderSci lab, told Wired. “So we realized that we would have to assemble it on our own.”
...
“Maybe there is some aspect of sex-linked biology playing into this, but it’s looking like it’s being swamped by contextual social factors,” Heather Shattuck-Heidorn, assistant director of the GenderSci Lab, told Wired. “The variability in death rates is immense.”
 
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