For newbies ... understanding governing authorities.

[Nytrunner]

Really? Is everything so complicated? When I found https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/06/falcon-heavy-spacex-rocket-florida-launch , I have no idea that it can cause SO many new problems that must be resolved...

Our hobby is just the tip of the iceberg.

Commercial companies actually putting things in space have leagues more red tape to deal with

 

[Ez2cDave]

So, what states, other than Indiana, have also not adopted NFPA 1125 ?

 

[Steve Shannon]

So, what states, other than Indiana, have also not adopted NFPA 1125 ?

I do know, but this thread back in 2008 discussed that question. Enjoy!
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/poll-nfpa-1122-vs-state-exemptions-the-nar-mrsc.113848/

 

[Ez2cDave]

I do know, but this thread back in 2008 discussed that question. Enjoy!
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/poll-nfpa-1122-vs-state-exemptions-the-nar-mrsc.113848/

Steve,

Actually, that thread was more of a back and forth dispute over the "motivations" of the NAR to get NFPA 1122 passed and adopted, allegedly for their own benefit.

It had little to nothing to do with NFPA 1125 and which states have still not adopted it ( the thread was from 11 years ago ).

So, currently, which states have not adopted NFPA 1125, as of 2019 ?

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Steve,

Actually, that thread was more of a back and forth dispute over the "motivations" of the NAR to get NFPA 1122 passed and adopted, allegedly for their own benefit.

It had little to nothing to do with NFPA 1125 and which states have still not adopted it ( the thread was from 11 years ago ).

So, currently, which states have not adopted NFPA 1125, as of 2019 ?

Dave F.

Because of what was explained in the thread I think it’ll be difficult to know which states have adopted 1122, 1125, and 1127, because as that thread reveals adoption of NFPA 1 automatically carries with it adoption of NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127, unless specifically declined. And I suspect there are lots of places (states, maybe even provinces, counties, and municipalities) who have adopted NFPA 1; it’s the Fire Code.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I was wrong. It was easier than I thought. From the NAR site:
https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/section-guidebook/laws-regulations/

“The NFPA 1/IFC states are the following:

Alabama
Alaska
Arkansas
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania (specifically adopted NFPA 1122 & 1127)
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Washington (state)
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming”

I can’t comment on accuracy or how these states might have carved out exceptions for the pyrotechnic requirements.
Thanks, NAR!

 

[Bat-mite]

Would have easier to list the four states that haven't adopted it.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Would have easier to list the four states that haven't adopted it.

Would be, but I’d have had to compare this list against the list of 50. That’s like geography class all over again! [emoji3]

 

[heada]

As you said Steve, that list is of the states that have adopted NFPA 1 but not which states have NFPA 1122/1125/1127 enforced. Getting that list would involve searching each state's codes and would be no simple feat. Indiana is listed as adopting NFPA 1 but excludes the rocketry codes as unenforcable and not in effect within the state. NFPA 1 doesn't always mean NFPA 1122/1125/1127 and I think NAR's list is misleading.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Strangely, California is not on the list . . . I am surprised because they love draconian laws.

New York is another surprise, too.

Indiana is no longer listed as not having adopted 1125.

• Arizona
• California
• New York
• Oregon
• Pennsylvania ( possibly did not adopt 1125 )

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

As you said Steve, that list is of the states that have adopted NFPA 1 but not which states have NFPA 1122/1125/1127 enforced. Getting that list would involve searching each state's codes and would be no simple feat. Indiana is listed as adopting NFPA 1 but excludes the rocketry codes as unenforcable and not in effect within the state. NFPA 1 doesn't always mean NFPA 1122/1125/1127 and I think NAR's list is misleading.

Exactly. I think it should only be considered as a starting point to do your own research.
We could do each state here as kind of a crowdsourced project. I’ll volunteer to do Montana.

 

[shreadvector]

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[DaveW6DPS]

As you said Steve, that list is of the states that have adopted NFPA 1 but not which states have NFPA 1122/1125/1127 enforced. Getting that list would involve searching each state's codes and would be no simple feat. Indiana is listed as adopting NFPA 1 but excludes the rocketry codes as unenforcable and not in effect within the state. NFPA 1 doesn't always mean NFPA 1122/1125/1127 and I think NAR's list is misleading.

Even in California, conspicuously absent from the NFPA 1 list, the state fire codes have partially adopted NFPA 1122 and 1125. Not 1127.

To make things really fun, when a state or federal authority adopts a consensus standard like those published by the NFPA it is a specific version. So if the latest update by a state is to incorporate part of NFPA 1122 as written in 2013 and the NFPA later makes changes, those changes are not automatically updated in state regulations.

Then there are the specifics of whether a standard is adopted as the state code, incorporated by reference, or just cited for information. In California, parts of the NFPA standards are included in regulations (mostly definitions and safe distances), the whole of NFPA 1122 is cited as a reference, and the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code is included for information only.

In each state there are nuances that you need to understand. This is one of the main values of launching with a club--the club will be up on what the regulations and requirements are.

When travelling to a different state, do not assume that things are similar. Check the rules at the club you are launching with.

 

[shreadvector]

Even in California, conspicuously absent from the NFPA 1 list, the state fire codes have partially adopted NFPA 1122 and 1125. Not 1127.

To make things really fun, when a state or federal authority adopts a consensus standard like those published by the NFPA it is a specific version. So if the latest update by a state is to incorporate part of NFPA 1122 as written in 2013 and the NFPA later makes changes, those changes are not automatically updated in state regulations.

Then there are the specifics of whether a standard is adopted as the state code, incorporated by reference, or just cited for information. In California, parts of the NFPA standards are included in regulations (mostly definitions and safe distances), the whole of NFPA 1122 is cited as a reference, and the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code is included for information only.

In each state there are nuances that you need to understand. This is one of the main values of launching with a club--the club will be up on what the regulations and requirements are.

When travelling to a different state, do not assume that things are similar. Check the rules at the club you are launching with.

As you probably know, we had parts of the CA Health 8 Safety Code ("the Law") changed and those changes went into effect Jan 1, 2016.

The Law over-rides any conflicting Regulation (Title 19, Division 1, Chapter 6). The reson we needed the Law changed is that CA had a very old definition of Model Rocket and Model Rocket Engine in the Law and the Regulations used only portions of a specific older edition of NFPA 1122.

Here is what the Law says now:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=12519.&lawCode=HSC
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=12520.&lawCode=HSC

That is the best and simplest wording we requested and could have hoped for and they passed it.

Anything in the current State Fire Regulations that conflicts with the Law is over-ruled by the Law. Eventually, the CSFM will revised the Regulations, but they are in no rush to do so and would need and active Pyrotechnics Committee to meet and get the ball rolling.

 

[DaveW6DPS]

As you probably know, we had parts of the CA Health 8 Safety Code ("the Law") changed and those changes went into effect Jan 1, 2016.
...
Anything in the current State Fire Regulations that conflicts with the Law is over-ruled by the Law. Eventually, the CSFM will revised the Regulations, but they are in no rush to do so and would need and active Pyrotechnics Committee to meet and get the ball rolling.

They are also in no hurry to change their fireworks handbook (dated 2011) or the CalPyro-rocketry exam.

A group from our club are studying for the exam, and the difference has caused us quite a bit of consternation. You have to study the "correct" answers for the exam, but in the field the updates apply. Some of us had interesting discussions with the CalFire folks at a RRS Symposium.

 

[Raketenolli]

The information in this thread is extremely helpful, but when taken literally, one could assume that you can launch your rocket "anywhere". That is of course not the case:

GENERAL OPERATING LIMITATIONS

1. In accordance with Part 101, an amateur rocket must:
   1. Launch on a suborbital trajectory;
   2. Not cross into the territory of a foreign country unless an agreement is in place between the United States and the country of concern;
   3. Be unmanned;
   4. Not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.
2. In addition to the above, Class 2-High Power Rockets and Class 3-Advanced High Power Rockets, must not operate:
   1. At any altitude where clouds or obscuring phenomena of more than five-tenths coverage prevail;
   2. At any altitude where the horizontal visibility is less than five miles;
   3. Into any cloud;
   4. Between sunset and sunrise without prior authorization from the FAA;
   5. Within 5 nautical miles of any airport boundary without prior authorization from the FAA;
   6. In controlled airspace without prior authorization from the FAA;
   7. Unless observing the greater of the following separation distances from any person or property that is not associated with the operation:
      1. Not less than one-quarter of the maximum expected altitude;
      2. 1,500 feet;
   8. Unless a person at least eighteen years old is present, is charged with ensuring the safety of the operation, and has final approval authority for initiating high-power rocket flight;
   9. Unless reasonable precautions are provided to report and control a fire caused by rocket activities.

Source: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pham_html/chap31_section_2.html
Reading VFR charts that show where controlled airspace is located is not easy, but charts can be found at https://www.vfrmap.com

Out of common sense I would apply the rules in the second list to model rockets (class 1) as well.

Oliver

 

[shockie]

"In the USA, rocketry is governed by two federal authorities, as well as state and local authorities. The federal authorities are the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE, or "the ATF")."

Actually, there are 4 Federal Agencies that have their toes in our waters: you forgot CSPC and DOT/PMSA. Otherwise great post.

 

[Steve Shannon]

"In the USA, rocketry is governed by two federal authorities, as well as state and local authorities. The federal authorities are the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE, or "the ATF")."

Actually, there are 4 Federal Agencies that have their toes in our waters: you forgot CSPC and DOT/PMSA. Otherwise great post.

Since the lawsuit, ATF no longer claims any regulatory authority over APCP.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Because of what was explained in the thread I think it’ll be difficult to know which states have adopted 1122, 1125, and 1127, because as that thread reveals adoption of NFPA 1 automatically carries with it adoption of NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127, unless specifically declined. And I suspect there are lots of places (states, maybe even provinces, counties, and municipalities) who have adopted NFPA 1; it’s the Fire Code.

I found something interesting and @Loki Research and @jsdemar might find it interesting as well. We often debate about NFPA 1122, 1125 and 1127. Take a close look at NFPA 1 page 396 65.8.1 and page 27, Chapter 2.1 (1). Read 65.8.1 very carefully.....

 

[jsdemar]

I found something interesting and @Loki Research and @jsdemar might find it interesting as well. We often debate about NFPA 1122, 1125 and 1127. Take a close look at NFPA 1 page 396 65.8.1 and page 27, Chapter 2.1 (1). Read 65.8.1 very carefully.....

65.8.1 .... key phrase is "produced commercially".
Ch 2.1 (1)... yes, other documents are referred to in part as needed.

NFPA 1 is the fire code used as a model document for most fire codes adopted in the US. However, specific regulations as written by States and localities may have exceptions spelled out, and may have other codes added into their actual adopted/passed documents.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

65.8.1 .... key phrase is "produced commercially".
Ch 2.1 (1)... yes, other documents are referred to in part as needed.

NFPA 1 is the fire code used as a model document for most fire codes adopted in the US. However, specific regulations as written by States and localities may have exceptions spelled out, and may have other codes added into their actual adopted/passed documents.

NFPA 1127 is only relevant when it is specifically called. It is not “stapled” to NFPA 1…

 

[jsdemar]

NFPA 1127 is only relevant when it is specifically called. It is not “stapled” to NFPA 1…

NFPA 1 is the envelope code which includes the referenced codes. The whole set of codes is "adopted by reference" and passed as law. When one of the included codes is modified and excluded, it is written as such in the local laws that are passed.

 

[jsdemar]

The two major fire codes are IFC and NFPA-1. The IFC referenced NFPA codes. Once a state or locally adopts them, they are enforced as law.

To check out which states and localities have adopted what, here's an interactive tool:
https://codefinder.nfpa.org/?country=United States of America

(You can also look at other countries who have adopted them).

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

NFPA 1 is the envelope code which includes the referenced codes. The whole set of codes is "adopted by reference" and passed as law. When one of the included codes is modified and excluded, it is written as such in the local laws that are passed.

I do not completely agree. Page 27, Chapter 2.1 (1) is clear about when referenced codes are part of the code. The scope is limited. My read on that and 65.8.1 means Tripoli's ex policy is actually quite consistent with the higher level code.

Anyway I was not looking to lawyer this too much. I just thought people should be aware of the reference process, and can interpret it for themselves.

 

[shockie]

Hmm, I don't know. 8.5.1 clearly establishes that you need to be certified in order to buy them, but after that it gets muddy. Yes, as written, only motors sold from the manufacturer to a certified user gets logged, but if motor dealers are considered an agent of the manufacturer, they may inherit the manufacturer's restrictions.

I'd have to ask a lawyer on that one.

Maybe this is why TRA doesn't allow the sale of EX motors for profit.

The reason the TRA doesn't allow the sale of EX motors, is it is against the regulations in NFPA 1125 and the DOT. EX motors have no "EX" number which verified the DOT has tested the EX motor.
An EX number, preceded by the prefix "EX–", is issued and used by the Department of Transportation (DOT) to identify an explosive which has been tested and classified by DOT. See U.S. Department of Transportation regulations at 49 CFR 171.8 and 49 CFR 173.56.

EDIT
Even though the BATFE has conceded that APCP is not an explosive, each APCP propellant variation has to have an EX number assigned, and then assigned an explosives classification , like 1.3C or 1.4S,etc for shipping & transportation purposes.
EX motors, aren't tested by DOT hence they don't receive an EX number nor an explosives classification.
So how are EX motors legally transported?

And if you read the NFPA codes carefully, they state that their purpose is to prevent people from making to their own motors.

How does TRA reconcile that?

Now before you jump on my case, let me say that I'm all for research experimental rocketry.

I personally believe that if a person makes their own motors they should be able to sell them.
Perhaps only at TRA or yes, even NAR sanctioned events.sign a waiver from the seller and sell only to adults.
One of the major problems this country has is over regulation on just about everything.

 

[shockie]

The two major fire codes are IFC and NFPA-1. The IFC referenced NFPA codes. Once a state or locally adopts them, they are enforced as law.

To check out which states and localities have adopted what, here's an interactive tool:
https://codefinder.nfpa.org/?country=United States of America

(You can also look at other countries who have adopted them).

NFPA 1122,1125,& 1127 are included both in the IFC and NFPA-1 by reference. It's either Chapter 33 or 34 in NFPA 1

This was done because some states were not adopting 1123,1125 & 1127.

In other words you have to opt out.

This used to be the case in Indiana about 15 years ago. I asked the state fire Marshall why they had not adopted the trio and his response was, " They are unenforceable".

Think about that. Here's a state fire Marshall saying these specific NFPA fire codes were unenforceable.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I cannot find 1FC. I only find NFPA-1, which my state Massachusetts uses. Can someone send a link to 1FC?

 

[shockie]

I do know, but this thread back in 2008 discussed that question. Enjoy!
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/poll-nfpa-1122-vs-state-exemptions-the-nar-mrsc.113848/

Dave, just for the record, 15 years ago when I wrote and posted all that, I was against any NFPA regulation.

My thoughts have changed dramatically since that time. I'm no longer against any NFPA regulation, but I'm not really for it either. Now it's a non-issue for me.

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

I cannot find 1FC. I only find NFPA-1, which my state Massachusetts uses. Can someone send a link to 1FC?

https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IFC2024P1

https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/I...and-fireworks#IFC2024P1_Pt05_Ch56_Sec5601.1.4