# First Upscale attempt: Quest Force 5

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#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
I was at the LHS today killing some time before work and noticed some D-11Ps on clearance. I was considering what to do with something like that, and had the idea for a 3x24mm cluster upscaled Quest Force 5, using the plugged engines on the boosters and a normal D-12 on the center mount.

I've never done an upscale before and math is not a friend. How do i begin with the process? How can I determine the correct dimensions of the tubes upscaling the 18mm tubes for the boosters to 24mm and getting the correct size on the body tube?

#### redsox15

##### Well-Known Member
I would first suggest getting the original scale of the rocket you are looking to upscale, if you haven't already done so.

You can next decide the size of the upscale that you want to do 2x 3x etc and buy materials accordingly. Or if you already know the size tubing you are going to use for the body tube then just use the scale between the diameters of the original to the upscale. Then take all the required measurements and build away!

Good luck with the build

Matt

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
I would first suggest getting the original scale of the rocket you are looking to upscale, if you haven't already done so.

You can next decide the size of the upscale that you want to do 2x 3x etc and buy materials accordingly. Or if you already know the size tubing you are going to use for the body tube then just use the scale between the diameters of the original to the upscale. Then take all the required measurements and build away!

Good luck with the build

Matt
Thanks! I think my specific question is this: I know the 'booster' tubes are quest's version of a BT-20 (min diameter 18mm). If I'm going for the minimum upscale, to turn those into min diameter 24mm (bt-56?) is that by chance a 2x upscale or is it some fraction thereof? Obviously 18 is not 1/2 of 24, so I figure it's like a 1.3x upscale? Maybe I need to simplify and just do a 2x and not worry about fitting the engine so snugly.

If that's the case, what tube is 2x a BT-20?

#### redsox15

##### Well-Known Member
The motor mount doesn't go with the scale per say. It just means you need more umph to get the rocket in the air. Also if you are doing a cluster for this you are going to need a bigger main body tube. A 3x24mm cluster needs a BT-80? if I'm not mistaken, to fit it all. So what you would need to do is find the scale of the BT 80 to the main BT of the force 5 not the motor mount.

For example if you were going from the BT 55 which is the body tube diameter for the quest force 5 to the BT 80 the scaling would be:

BT 55= 33.7mm diameter
BT 80= 66mm diameter

so if you divide 66 and 33.7 you get just under a 2x upscale of the rocket.

Hope this helped

Matt

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
I think we have a continuity problem between us, Matt. Let me try to clarify things. This is the rocket I'm trying to upscale, using engines in the outer tubes which are currently decorative only in the stock version. The cluster configuration would be parallel, not radial. I would not have all 3 engines in the center tube, at least in my concept. The two outer tubes are BT-20, I think the inner is a BT-60.

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#### UPscaler

##### New Member
Should be a fun project.

BT-50 is 24mm motor tubing.

So maybe BT-80 should be the main tube. You can buy a motor kit from estes that comes with everything you need to fit C11's D12's and E9's into it.

I thought I had one but I guess I don't.

Post pics as you go!

Good luck upscales are fun stuff!

#### redsox15

##### Well-Known Member
oh okay my mistake. As I was looking at the rocket previously I thought you were keeping the outer motors decorative

Same rule applies though. If you want the two outer tubes to be 24mm then you need to see the ratio between the 18mm tube to the 24mm.

Once you have that ratio you need to take that ratio and multiply the middle tube by that to get the diameter of your main body tube

your scale will be 1 1/3 scale

so if you multiply the diameter of the BT 60 which is 40.5mm (inner dia) by the scale (1 1/3) you get 54mm diameter main tube.

I think we are on the same page now lol

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
That's exactly the info I'm looking for. Now, to get my stock version, measure it out and figure the tube lengths. In fact, i think I saw a post about that somewhere in LPR.

Oh yes, and I need to go buy those D-11Ps!

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member

Enlarge fin templates on a copier? Set at 133%? Sounds about right.

#### redsox15

##### Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use a D11-P for the engine that ejects the parachute because it won't haha.

So for the middle use a D12-7 definitely the longer delay because it is getting boosted faster and higher so you want to give it time to slow down at the top. If you went with D11-Ps on the outboard and a D12 something in the middle.

As for the fins you can definitely do the copier method it works just fine.

Looks like a fun rocket to upscale

good luck

Matt

#### MattieShoes

##### Well-Known Member

Enlarge fin templates on a copier? Set at 133%? Sounds about right.
Yes. Multiply all measurements by 1.33 (height of all tubes, diameter of outer tubes, all the fin dimensions, the length of the nose cone, everything)

Of course, you'll probably choose to deviate from perfectly scale for some things...

#### rokitflite

##### Well-Known Member
I think we have a continuity problem between us, Matt. Let me try to clarify things. This is the rocket I'm trying to upscale, using engines in the outer tubes which are currently decorative only in the stock version. The cluster configuration would be parallel, not radial. I would not have all 3 engines in the center tube, at least in my concept. The two outer tubes are BT-20, I think the inner is a BT-60.

[/IMG]
The outer tubes are 20mm, larger than a BT-20, the inner tube is 35mm, smaller than a BT-60, closer to a 55.

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
The outer tubes are 20mm, larger than a BT-20, the inner tube is 35mm, smaller than a BT-60, closer to a 55.
Thanks! Working from memory isn't very accurate, I suppose.

Yes, the D11-Ps were always planned for the outboards, not the centerline. I was considering an e9-8 for the centerline engine.

#### Mikus

##### Well-Known Member
Good luck. I certainly hope it flies better than the original.

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
I know the first one has a tendency to corkscrew on the way up. I'm going to see if I can't improve that with this upscale. I have a feeling it's dependent on skill when assembling the angled wings. We shall see. I'm going to order another normal scale one to get the fin templates.

#### rokitflite

##### Well-Known Member
It also would not hurt to add a fin or two to the underside of the model.

##### Well-Known Member
Quest has fine rockets and rocket parts. They don't have what you need. You need to switch to standard size body tubes and parts to do what you want to do.

This is how you switch (I don't have a Quest Force 5 so I can only go by the measurments given here. 20mm for the side boosters and 35mm for the central booster).

A Quest 20mm body tube divided by 25.2mm (25.4mm = 1 inch)= .7874015 in.

You say you want 24mm min motors in both the side boosters, right?
OK, now we have a point to start from.

A 24mm motor slides right into a BT-50 tube
A BT-50 is .976 in O.D. and .950 in I.D.(24.13mm).

You take the measurment from the large tube (BT-50) and divide it by the small tube (20mm) for upscaleing.

.976 divided by .787= 1.2401524 This is your SCALELING FACTOR (S/F)
You will multiply every measurment you take from the original rocket and use this S/F.

Measure the length of the original 20mm Quest body tube and multiply it by the S/F, thats your new length.

Now you know you need two BT-50's for the side boosters and the length.

Central tube

35mm multiplyed by the S/F= 43.405334mm
A BT-60 is 41.5798mm

the differance between the two is 1.826mm
1.826 divided by 2= .913mm

Less then 1mm off, no worries.

Again I can't do the length because I have no measurment. But you do, and now you know how to do it.

Now you know you need BT-50 and BT-60 body tubes.

Use the same S/F for Nose cone and fin measurments.

Angles not not change when you upscale or down scale. They remain the same as the original.

balsamachining.com has the tubes and centering rings you'll need and semroc.com will have the nose cones you'll want.

Have fun!

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you very much! BT50 and 60! How simple!

Now don't hurt me but...I've decided to use this as my EMRR challenge project. So...that means it will be a 2x upscale. Is 2.0 my new scaling factor? That makes a 40mm tube and a 70mm tube. I saw that quest had 40s, but I'll have to look elsewhere for a 70mm.

##### Well-Known Member
How much are planning to spend on this upscale? The bt 50 & 60 is a 124% upscale. You want to do a 200%?

#### TheAviator

##### Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you very much! BT50 and 60! How simple!

Now don't hurt me but...I've decided to use this as my EMRR challenge project. So...that means it will be a 2x upscale. Is 2.0 my new scaling factor? That makes a 40mm tube and a 70mm tube. I saw that quest had 40s, but I'll have to look elsewhere for a 70mm.
Semroc sells Series 27 tubing, which is 68.6mm diameter, and Series 275 tubing, which is 72.1mm in diameter with a thicker wall. If you don't mind fudging the dimensions a little (no one will notice, methinks) then either of these would work.

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Products/BodyTubes.asp

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
How much are planning to spend on this upscale? The bt 50 & 60 is a 124% upscale. You want to do a 200%?
Good question! Another question is what am I going to fly it on? I'm getting the feeling a 200% is gonna be too heavy for the 3x Ds or Es I'm talking about.

I saw Estes also has the A10-Ps out...maybe I'll do a 1/2 scale instead!

#### TheAviator

##### Well-Known Member
Good question! Another question is what am I going to fly it on? I'm getting the feeling a 200% is gonna be too heavy for the 3x Ds or Es I'm talking about.

I saw Estes also has the A10-Ps out...maybe I'll do a 1/2 scale instead!
If you use lightweight tubing and balsa, not heavy tubing and ply, I think a 3x 24mm BP cluster would be sufficient for a 200% scale model. I would, however, suggest you use a 29mm central mount if you ever want to fly on just one motor. Additionally, Quest is supposed to be coming out with a 28mm BP E and F some time in the not too distant future, so you could do a BP cluster using those as well, but only if you use a 29mm MMT for the central mount.

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
Ok i've completed step one: Buy engines on clearance. (I know i'm a fast mover on this, but I held out till they went to 75% off)
Step two would be to obtain a scan of the Force 5 fin templates to upscale. Anyone by chance have this lying around? I'd rather not buy another kit to use for this, and since I have a vast community of folks here to draw from, figure i'd ask.

#### hcmbanjo

##### Well-Known Member
Hi John,
Maybe give Quest a call at 800-858-7302.
They might get you the templates just for the Challenge "plug".
It's worth a try and it's a toll free call!

#### Marlin523

##### Well-Known Member
If up or down scaling is something you want to do more of I would suggest making the investment in Rocksim from Apogee. Many designs are available from Essence Model Rocket Review. To scale you simply load a design, plug in the scale factor and voilà! The math is all done for you. All tube diameters, fins, nosecone etc are scaled. You can also download a 30 Free trial of the software. I can honestly say the program is fantastic.

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
If up or down scaling is something you want to do more of I would suggest making the investment in Rocksim from Apogee. Many designs are available from Essence Model Rocket Review. To scale you simply load a design, plug in the scale factor and voilà! The math is all done for you. All tube diameters, fins, nosecone etc are scaled. You can also download a 30 Free trial of the software. I can honestly say the program is fantastic.
Thanks, Marlin. I've run through my 30 day free trial of rocksim last year and loved it. I used it on several of my scratch built designs. What I thought was an interesting omission in the parts list was the lack of Estes parts and designations, which at the time, were the limit of my rocket parts experience. Now that i'm versed in Semroc products, I understand why those were omitted.

I haven't got the  to invest in the full copy yet, but plan to one day soon. I didn't realize it had the upscale feature. That's fantastic!

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
Hi John,
Maybe give Quest a call at 800-858-7302.
They might get you the templates just for the Challenge "plug".
It's worth a try and it's a toll free call!
Worked like a charm! Thanks, Chris!

#### judo

##### Well-Known Member
If you have not done so already, download VCP (Visual Center of Pressure). It is a free Center of Pressure/Center of Gravity stability program. It is very friendly towards scaling. I used it for all my Photon Probes. I just wish it would get updated.

http://v-serv.com/vcp/

And which LHS had motors for 75% off?

Also, if you don't have one already, get a digital caliper from Harbor Freight. They have a 6" one on sale for \$9.99! There's one near Beach and Southside.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-digital-caliper-47257.html

PM Sent.

#### dragon_rider10

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks guys!

I don't see a Rocksim file for the Force 5 on EMRR. Anyone have one?