First build for Tripoli certification

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WhiteFeather

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I'm looking to pick out a kit to aquire Tripoli certification, my daughter is involved with her university sponsored space hardware club and while I've been helping her out some I've become interested myself.

I myself am a manufacturing engineer in the aerospace business, I started out 30 years ago as a cnc machinist and still have the capability of CNC programming and 3d modeling so I am capable of producing all of the components without a kit but I'd rather go through the certification process using kit components and then my daughter and I will start building from the ground up so to speak.

I'd like to use a 3" or 4" kit, and use one that can take me all the way to a level 3 certification if there is one suitable?

I've been looking at madcow, but I'd love to hear any suggestions.

Thanks for any help!
 
I haven't built anything completely myself since the late 80's and these were little Estes kits..

I have helped people over the years with components they needed modeled and machined for their own rockets.. I've been involved in the AIM 120 missle system for years at an engineering/manufacturing level.

While not having built an amateur rocket completely myself I am familiar with building components of this nature as that's what I do for a living.
 
Look at a MAC Performance canvas phenolic kit. They come prefitted and all you have to do is sand a little and add epoxy. Even hobby store epoxy will work. They take paint well. I don't think you can get a better combination of sturdy and easy.
 
Look at a MAC Performance canvas phenolic kit. They come prefitted and all you have to do is sand a little and add epoxy. Even hobby store epoxy will work. They take paint well. I don't think you can get a better combination of sturdy and easy.

The Scorpion XL and Zodiac both look like what I have in mind..

I'll keep looking at everything for the time being, but those two will definitely be "contenders" on the list.

Thanks.
 
I'd like to use a 3" or 4" kit, and use one that can take me all the way to a level 3 certification if there is one suitable?
I haven't built anything completely myself since the late 80's and these were little Estes kits..

I have helped people over the years with components they needed modeled and machined for their own rockets.. I've been involved in the AIM 120 missle system for years at an engineering/manufacturing level.

While not having built an amateur rocket completely myself I am familiar with building components of this nature as that's what I do for a living.

You're probably overqualified. :)LOL

If I read you correctly - you thinking about the same rocket project being used for Levels 1, 2 and 3?
That in itself is interesting, its been done I'm sure, seem to recall the discussion a couple of times - going back to the old Rocketry Online Forum.
A design challenge.
Structured adequately (heavy) enough to take an M but still light enough to fly on an I .
With the materials out there now probably not as difficult to do.

I've not built and flown a Mac Performance kit but the materials may be robust enough maybe with some mods to get you there.
Batmite would know.
 
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You're probably overqualified. :)LOL

If I read you correctly - you thinking about the same rocket project being used for Levels 1, 2 and 3?
That in itself is interesting, its been done I'm sure, seem to recall the discussion a couple of times - going back to the old Rocketry Online Forum.
A design challenge.
Heavy enough to take an M but still light enough to fly on an I .
With the materials out there now probably not as difficult to do.

I've not built and flown a Mac Performance kit but the materials may be robust enough to get you there.
Batmite would know.

Right now I'm still early in the "thinking" part of the process..

I'd like to get the certification process done as quickly and painlessly as possible... If that can be done with one airframe for all three certification attempts great, at this point I'm still figuring out all the requirements so I'm not sure how practical it is to try and use one airframe for all three attempts.

Long term... I'm already in the design phase of building a CNC winder for airframe construction from whatever filament or TOW I decide upon at that point. I have a pretty fair amount of experience with carbon fiber, fiberglass, kevlar, and other materials.

I'm also keenly interested in manufacturing reusable engines.. but one step at a time. :D
 
I would recommend a rocket for Level 1&2 and build something else for your L-3 flight. It would be nice for you to get a fair number of flights at L1 & L2 before doing L3. Why rush it? enjoy the journey. Learn about deferent reloads and get good with electronics before going for L3.

Have fun and fly safe
 
I'd like to use a 3" or 4" kit, and use one that can take me all the way to a level 3 certification if there is one suitable?

Ummmmm, L1 to L3 on one rocket is a sizable request. Would need to keep the weight down low to perhaps get a decent flight on an I and then the thing will go very high on an M and then one's tracking skills would need to be developed and a flight venue with the high waiver would need to be considered.

If you were to undertake this with a 4 inch rocket perhaps cut a 4 inch airframe and run it single deploy.
If you use engine only deployment with phenolic tubes, you'd need to sim the heck out of it and learn to cut
or excuse me, drill a delay grain if you need to shorten the delay. A zipper will nix a certification attempt.

You could run this up to L2 or use it for L1 only and move on to the next stage: Build an electronics bay
and add an upper tube for a main parachute. You would need to at least attest to the fact you've flown electronics
before attempting an L3 so that would be a mark for making the L2 rocket electronic.

If you think you are going to pull this off 1,2,3 or bang, bang, bang rest assured it will most likely be
bing, bang, BONG!! Something anomalous will occur so don't expect your background (though very impressive)
will guarantee success.

Sure there have been young persons who pulled off L1,2 and 3 certs in one day but they grew up in a rocketry family and had a lot of exposure while growing up and following a STEM education along the way.

I'm still waiting for the time to pull off the L3 have three rockets, two of which are in various stages of finish
and one that could attempt it with little modification except there's no place nearby with a high enough waiver to
accommodate it.

I rushed my L2 like 12 years ago due to stupid rules back then that are no longer in force. I did the J and then
had fun along the way with trials and tribulations with H and I rockets electronically deployed.
Lucked out with an L flight when the tracker failed and got it back. I'm having a lot of fun.

What's the rush? If your daughter's group needs a mentor, look to a local rocketry group to find some
if that is what's needed.

L1 to L3 on one rocket is something that would take thought and planning. I don't think
it's a good idea for a BAR to try to pull off quickly.

Kurt
 
I didn't mean to imply I would be attempting all three certs in one day, I have no where near the experience for that.

The more I look at the requirements I'm thinking of using one airframe for L1, L2 and another for the L3.

Or I may just go ahead and do a basic cardboard for L1 and then a decent fiberglass for L2, and then a scratch build for L3... That all may depend on how fast I can develop my winder.

Right now I'm just trying to layout a timeline and basic plan... I'm thinking of taking a full year to aquire all three levels of certification, I'm certainly not looking to do it in one trip.. LoL
 
One rocket for L1-L3 is definitely possible. You may consider building a top section that is compatible with several motor sections. I have had success with a 3” airframe configuration flying J-M. Beware, an M flight on such a bird is going to go fast and high. Before the Playa so rudely interrupted my flying, my 3” would easily do Mach 2.2 to 25kft. Good luck with your project. Take your time, be safe and be careful.
 
I'd like to use a 3" or 4" kit, and use one that can take me all the way to a level 3 certification if there is one suitable?

I've been looking at madcow, but I'd love to hear any suggestions.

Madcow is a great vendor, and so are many others.

If you've rekindled interest in this hobby, you will be highly unlikely to stop with just one (1) rocket build. Therefore, over-complicating things and going for all three (3) certs on one rocket build is kinda pointless - you will want to go back and build more anyway.

Ask me how I know.
My kids got me back into building rockets a few years ago, and now we have more assembled rockets than I know where to store. And that's not counting the stash of un-assembled kits in the basement that my wife doesn't know about (yet).

If you really want to build something strong enough to fly on anything from H/I (L1) through M (L3) motors, it would be a 4" kit that weights less than 10 pounds to get off the pad safely on an I-motor. Think thin-wall fiberglass or CF kits, or a minimal diameter 75mm/3" kit. They do exist (e.g.: Wildman AAD 98, MC CF Tomach, or MC CF Mangoose), but you will be needlessly over-complicating your build.

If the maximum complexity is attractive and budget is unlimited - go for it.
Otherwise, you may wish to slow down a bit, and focus on L1/L2 capable kit first, then go from there.

a
 
You may consider building a top section that is compatible with several motor sections.

That was exactly my thought in the beginning...

I was looking at some sort of modular setup for the engine housing, or separate lowers completely..

Still in the thinking part of the process.. right now all my actual work is going into my winder but I anticipate starting at least a kit for L1 by first of the year.
 
Here's the bridge you must cross......

You need a TAP [2 of them actually] to approve the design/construction of a L-3 build, if a Tripoli member.
1 to witness the actual flight & sign off. [I am a TAP]

The only way I would agree to it: a former L-3 flier who has lost certification, been through the process & is just re-certifiing. That person has been through the the written test for L-2, knows how to build..been there..done that.

For you to get a rocket build approved for all 3 levels will be tough. Putting the cart before the horse.
May I suggest building a L-1 rocket which is quite simple, get your L-1.
Then building a rocket for both L-2 & 3 would be far easier to get approval, after you have shown your flying skills.


Yes you could build a L-3 rocket, take the payload off, put the NC on fincan and fly it with an I-motor to get L-1
Take the L-2 test... fly with payload get L-2 & fly again with M-motor for L-3.
BUT getting approval for that is the rub.
I want to see many flights with a variety of motors, showing skills in matching up for weights of projects, wind conditions & recovery skills.

For someone with your skills, I would recommend a 3in. airframe with 54 motor mount to hone your skills. This a good do it all size that everyone should have in their arsenal anyway, for flying in all around conditions & motor choices that won't break the bank. [in my opinion]

Why 1 do do it all? Just curious. After winding how will you smooth the surface...grind or lathe?
If you wish to discuss your situation at length, feel free to PM [private message] me with phone #. This is way too much info for me to type.:smile:
 
Why 1 do do it all? Just curious. After winding how will you smooth the surface...grind or lathe?
If you wish to discuss your situation at length, feel free to PM [private message] me with phone #. This is way too much info for me to type.:smile:

My train of thought was that by using one airframe for all three certifications would give me more time to develop and test my winder while I was attempting whichever level of certification I was at at the time.

I use a pressure sleeve after winding which squeezes out any excess epoxy and leaves a much smoother surface than you would imagine. You can also use a type of heat shrink wrap for the same purpose but it isn't quite as smooth afterwards.

If it were needed I also have the ability to finish diameters mechanically up to 42" in lengths up to 60'.
 
My train of thought was that by using one airframe for all three certifications would give me more time to develop and test my winder while I was attempting whichever level of certification I was at at the time.

I use a pressure sleeve after winding which squeezes out any excess epoxy and leaves a much smoother surface than you would imagine. You can also use a type of heat shrink wrap for the same purpose but it isn't quite as smooth afterwards.

If it were needed I also have the ability to finish diameters mechanically up to 42" in lengths up to 60'.

Holee molee, Why do you want to do a kit when it looks like you can roll your own tubes? You'd have the ultimate quality control. Kurt
 
I would recommend a rocket for Level 1&2 and build something else for your L-3 flight. It would be nice for you to get a fair number of flights at L1 & L2 before doing L3. Why rush it? enjoy the journey. Learn about deferent reloads and get good with electronics before going for L3.

Have fun and fly safe
+1 Crossfires recommendation in its entirety. L3 certs require a fair amount of detailed documentation and periodic inspections by TAPs along the way. Depending on Tripolis rules you may not even be allowed start the build until after the previous certs are completed. The cert process is designed to prove that an individual has learned certain methods of construction, motor selection, proficiency with electronics, recovery techniques. Its also going to be tougher to build a rocket that will handle motors for all three cert levels, a rocket thats light enough to fly on big I motors will break most clubs waivers ( depending on your flying field of course). L3 rockets require different building techniques than L1 and L2 rockets or at least higher quality materials.
 
Holee molee, Why do you want to do a kit when it looks like you can roll your own tubes? You'd have the ultimate quality control. Kurt

I don't have the ability yet.. I'm building the winder now and wanted to go ahead and get started on my certifications while I finish building and testing the machine.
 
I don't have the ability yet.. I'm building the winder now and wanted to go ahead and get started on my certifications while I finish building and testing the machine.
Forget this rocket nonsense, tell us more about the winder, compression sleeve, and OD finishing capabilities :)

For anyone playing with the possibility of L1-L3 on a single bird ( or identical copies of the same bird ) consider: g66lr has a peak thrust of 115N, and is in the same family as k627lr and m1378lr.
 
You'd have to work out the TAP issue that Jim mentioned, but a 4" Madcow Super DX3 with a 75mm motor mount could do it without any modifications or configuration changes between flights (with the appropriate altimeters & a tracker). https://www.madcowrocketry.com/4-fiberglass-super-dx3/

L1: CTI I445 with a 54mm adapter (~2000' apogee)
L2: CTI K735 (7500')
L3: CTI M1101 (16,000')

You could also build something cheap & small for L1 & L2, then do a dedicated L3 bird. That should solve any TAP coordination issues. Something like the 54mm Frenzy would be great for a combo L1/L2 rocket. https://www.madcowrocketry.com/2-2-54mm-fiberglass-frenzy-xl/ (I'm building a 54mm Broken Arrow as a sport flier - that'd work too.)

OOoorrrrrrr.....build a 54mm minimum diameter rocket with a custom-spec'd kit from Mac Performance & fly everything from a G to the M1378 in it. ;)
 
+1 Crossfires recommendation in its entirety. L3 certs require a fair amount of detailed documentation and periodic inspections by TAPs along the way. Depending on Tripolis rules you may not even be allowed start the build until after the previous certs are completed. The cert process is designed to prove that an individual has learned certain methods of construction, motor selection, proficiency with electronics, recovery techniques. Its also going to be tougher to build a rocket that will handle motors for all three cert levels, a rocket thats light enough to fly on big I motors will break most clubs waivers ( depending on your flying field of course). L3 rockets require different building techniques than L1 and L2 rockets or at least higher quality materials.

Those are NAR rules? TRA it isn't in writing that the project "has" to be inspected along the build. What about those who live a long ways away from the L3CC? If NAR wants useless inspections send them to TRA. In the "bad" old days I know a guy who had to drive long distance seven times to a TAP (TRA mind you not NAR but I think they were sucking off NAR rules at the time) for "inspections" which was totally uncalled for.

How can you tell someone what they can build and when? I know folks who planned and were building an L3 project long before the attempt was made. If one uses a "kit" or collection of parts that has been proven to be a good performer it's not too hard to get them together into a viable rocket. The key is the documentation. Sure, if an L3CC or TAP is nearby take advantage of it but are you saying because someone is isolated they can't attempt an L3 because it's
difficult to get the prerequisite "inspections"? That's asinine and eliminates the prospect of attaining the L3 for those in isolation who may take construction pictures and or videos as proof of technique. Cripes, they might as well
video an "L" motor flight while they're at it to prove "airworthiness". (Not a bad idea to video an L flight mind you if one is of that persuasion) You going to decline an attempt because of "no building" inspection(s)? Sheesh, send'em over to TRA and I bet there are TAPs who would take a look see.
Kurt
 
I didn't mean to imply I would be attempting all three certs in one day, I have no where near the experience for that.

The more I look at the requirements I'm thinking of using one airframe for L1, L2 and another for the L3.

Or I may just go ahead and do a basic cardboard for L1 and then a decent fiberglass for L2, and then a scratch build for L3... That all may depend on how fast I can develop my winder.

Right now I'm just trying to layout a timeline and basic plan... I'm thinking of taking a full year to aquire all three levels of certification, I'm certainly not looking to do it in one trip.. LoL

this sounds like a much better plan
 
I myself am a manufacturing engineer in the aerospace business, I started out 30 years ago as a cnc machinist and still have the capability of CNC programming and 3d modeling

... That all may depend on how fast I can develop my winder.

You're about to make a lot of new friends.... ;)


My advice, depends a lot on your home field and how high their waiver is. If you wanna get high... a 54mm body tube with a 38mm motor mount will be a hell of a ride. If you want to be dropping $180 a flight, a 3" body tube with a 54 mount and the big long L motors would be a really fun way to play.

L1-3 on the same 4" airframe with a 75mm mount is doable if you have about an 18,000' waiver.

L1/L2 on one, then L3 on another is likely a better way, as you'll learn a lot over the course of the first two certs you'll like to apply to the third.

Of course, I'd recommend MAC Performance and Loki motors.... they're tons of fun. Get the L1 set and then ask about electronics. Thats where the real fun starts ;)
 
Coincidently, I was going through some of my files in the workshop this afternoon......found a forum print-out from the old Rocketry Planet, of 18 year old David Harris's successful L1-L2-L3 flights - all done in one weekend.

Some of the comments were interesting, some made by a few of you folks still around on this forum.
Oregon Rocketry's First Thaw launch April 12, 2011.

David had been flying under other certified fliers names up to L motors (hmmmm, reminds me of another young guy that used to post here that has since left the hobby - went all the way to Ex and O motors w/o ever certifying L-1).
Attempt was made after he turned 18 yo and became eligible,...and it was approached as a two rocket project, as has been discussed here.

FWIW : The "L-1" was on a 3" FG rocket with an H123 to 800 feet - only after it was damaged with a recovery failure after the first attempt earlier in the day with a CTI - VMAX 1445.
Planned on using the same airframe for the "L2" attempt with an AT J350...had to switch to the 4" FG "L-3" rocket as the field repair on the L-1 rocket was not likely to hold up with the L2 motor.
A 4 grain CTI L2375 was selected for the L2 flight - went Mach 1.26 to 13,600 feet.

L-3 was with a baby M 1230 to 14,800 feet, Beeline for tracking, Raven showed 12 Gs .
TAPs could probably elaborate....think they are here on TRF.

Hey, what ever floats yer boat.
 
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The NAR L3 certification process requires that Level 2 be achieved before beginning work on the L3 project. No such requirement exists for Tripoli. I’m not saying our way is better; it’s just slightly different.
I usually try to convince people to spend some time and fly several flights at each level. For people who have limited experience that usually is easier and results in a more rounded flyer, even though it’s sometimes frustrating to an ambitious new flyer. But we do not require that within our rules and I would be against ever adopting such a rule. Everyone is different and there are those who we may wish to allow to do 123 in a day, especially one who had to drop out for awhile and had their certification level revert to 0.
Instead, within Tripoli we limit the people who can certify a flyer to the next level and we allow them to use their judgement. If they don’t think a flyer is competent to move to the next level, they don’t have to allow them to fly. Naturally that sometimes leads to people thinking they’re being picked on, but in the long run it has worked well.
Now, as far as a single rocket that could be used for all three levels, if someone with the right skills wished to do that, I seem to remember reading about someone who did just such a thing using a PML Pterodactyl with dual electronics and single deployment. I would be more inclined to do something slightly smaller myself.



Steve Shannon
 
Those are NAR rules? TRA it isn't in writing that the project "has" to be inspected along the build. What about those who live a long ways away from the L3CC? If NAR wants useless inspections send them to TRA. In the "bad" old days I know a guy who had to drive long distance seven times to a TAP (TRA mind you not NAR but I think they were sucking off NAR rules at the time) for "inspections" which was totally uncalled for.

How can you tell someone what they can build and when? I know folks who planned and were building an L3 project long before the attempt was made. If one uses a "kit" or collection of parts that has been proven to be a good performer it's not too hard to get them together into a viable rocket. The key is the documentation. Sure, if an L3CC or TAP is nearby take advantage of it but are you saying because someone is isolated they can't attempt an L3 because it's
difficult to get the prerequisite "inspections"? That's asinine and eliminates the prospect of attaining the L3 for those in isolation who may take construction pictures and or videos as proof of technique. Cripes, they might as well
video an "L" motor flight while they're at it to prove "airworthiness". (Not a bad idea to video an L flight mind you if one is of that persuasion) You going to decline an attempt because of "no building" inspection(s)? Sheesh, send'em over to TRA and I bet there are TAPs who would take a look see.
Kurt

Are you in a bad mood today Kurt, because that's the way your post came off, and you totally misinterpreted mine. I was not implying that NAR rules are the same as TRA, simply that the Tripoli MAY have had restrictions against it, Steve Shannon of course set that straight. My L3CC happens to also be a TRA TAP and iirc at one time was a member of TRA's Class 3 review committee (thats irrelevant to this conversation though). Yes documentation and photo records of the build can be accepted by the TAP but there are some TAPs who still want a physical periodic inspection. Each to their own, I did NAR simply because it is what my local club is and the nearest TAPs are all at least 3+ hours travel time each way (my L3CC was too, but only one L3CC is require). Not once was I asked to appear for a physical inspection of the rocket until the day of the flight, photos and documentation were fine (lots of photos, Kent even followed the build on both build threads here on TRF and my clubs forum, he also payed attention to the questions from readers and the answers I gave). Physical inspections are a convenience if the TAPs are available near to you. I absolutely am not telling someone what they can and cannot build, FYI my L3 project was in the planning stages before I even built my L1 or L2 cert rockets but due to NAR's rules I could not start the actual process until L2 was complete. Would I recommend someone blow through the three Cert levels as quick as possible, absolutely not, would I move as quickly as I did again, absolutely not (financial timing was important for the L3 in my case). There is a lot to be learned by flying L1 motors for a while before moving up to L2s and then to L3 motors. A

And yes your reply pissed me off.
 
I think the answer to this all depends on how easy it is to get to your local HPR field and what their waiver is. If that's a once-a-month proposition with a waiver over 10,000', I'd build a 2.6"-3" 38mm motor deploy rocket for L1 and L2, later a 3"-4" 54mm rocket for practice flying L2 with electronics, and finally a larger 75mm or 98mm L3 project. By then, you will be good enough to scratch build and/or find a kit that suits your needs. Regardless, you'll do some stupid stuff on your first rocket or two, which you'll fix on your L3 project. You'll also gain experience critical to making L3 a success.

If you have a lower waiver, you might think about larger ratios between body tube and motor mount to keep the altitude down lower. There aren't a lot of places east of the Mississippi where you can fly a 4" rocket on an M and stay under the waiver.

As far as manufacturers, you can't really go wrong with a kit from Madcow, Wildman, MAC, or any of the other major vendors. Pick out a kit in the right size range that speaks to you and fits in your budget. :)
 
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