Firearms Safety In The Entertainment Industry

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I am sorry Deeroc29 that you do not understand fault. 2 weeks ago in St Paul, 14 people were shot in a bar by 2 assailants. Who was to blame? Wasn't the bartender. Wasn't the waitress. Wasn't the guy that sold the guns to the assailants. It WAS the 2 people with the guns in their hands.
Same with the schools shootings. The person to blame is the one with the gun in their hand. So no discussion on fault is needed. Although all are tragic.
 
It's amazing to me how some people can revel in the misfortune of others.
It's an indication of their character, or lack thereof.
Pitiful.
People don't care...others can't make them. The more they try, the less they care. It's mostly brought on by all the virtue signalers out there. That in and of itself is a form of "reveling."
 
@Bravo52 - it says a lot that you refuse to engage anyone in real conversation when you post. Instead, you just put a childish 'laugh' emoticon as a response. You've been doing this for months. It's as if you either are incapable of a rational response or simply have no interest in legitimate conversation.
 
People don't care...others can't make them. The more they try, the less they care. It's mostly brought on by all the virtue signalers out there. That in and of itself is a form of "reveling."
Don't know how you were raised, but I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong and to call out unacceptable social behavior when I see it, not look the other way. This is a good thing, though you may sneer and call it "virtue signalling" or "wokeism". Guess when you have no other defense you need to make up denigratory terms for righteous behavior.
 
Trying to stay as objective as possible,... here is how I think through it:

  1. Movies that show actors shooting guns are obviously depicting firearms practices AND/OR criminal activity that would be considered entirely UNSAFE/ILLEGAL in REAL LIFE. ("Real Life" = outside of the movie set).
  2. Traditional "Real Life" Firearms Safety practices would not allow creating these types of situations for a movie. HOWEVER, the movie storyline requires showing unsafe firearms practices and criminal activity.
  3. THEREFORE, the movie industry created its own set of "Movie" Firearms Safety Practices that are used INSTEAD of the traditional "Real Life" firearms safety practices used by the public. The "Movie" practices should give EQUIVALENT SAFETY to the traditional firearms safety practices we are familiar with.

Unfortunately, seems like the people didn't follow the process. It's not a process design problem - it's a people problem.

Free Fire
(2016) Sharlto Copley, Brie Larson, Armie Hammer.

If ever there was a movie that must have practiced on set firearm safety while depicting absolutely insane uses of firearms it would be this one.
 
=
Free Fire
(2016) Sharlto Copley, Brie Larson, Armie Hammer.

If ever there was a movie that must have practiced on set firearm safety while depicting absolutely insane uses of firearms it would be this one.
I wonder how many yahoos tried to "bend the bullet" after seeing Wanted?
Heh.
 
Don't know how you were raised, but I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong and to call out unacceptable social behavior when I see it, not look the other way. This is a good thing, though you may sneer and call it "virtue signalling" or "wokeism". Guess when you have no other defense you need to make up denigratory terms for righteous behavior.
You are right. You don't know how most people are reared except maybe the ones close to you. The problem isn't "calling out unacceptable social behavior" it's defining it under your own terms to the exclusion of others...and when it doesn't meet your own definition, calling them "pitiful." That to me, seems like a little "self righteous" behavior. In other words, just an opinion. You do you and if people agree, then good. If they don't, doesn't necessarily mean they are bad...they just don't agree.
 
Why would anyone ever accept another person's word about whether a gun is loaded or not? It only takes a few seconds to check.
 
You are right. You don't know how most people are reared except maybe the ones close to you. The problem isn't "calling out unacceptable social behavior" it's defining it under your own terms to the exclusion of others...and when it doesn't meet your own definition, calling them "pitiful." That to me, seems like a little "self righteous" behavior. In other words, just an opinion. You do you and if people agree, then good. If they don't, doesn't necessarily mean they are bad...they just don't agree.
By your definition then there is no such thing as right and wrong, good or bad, but only "opinions".
I categorically reject that.
Ethnic cleansing (a euphemism for genocide) is universally recognized as wrong.
Or are you going to convince me that it's just my opinion?
 
Being a firearms person, I feel that while it is the responsibility of everyone handling the said firearm, it mainly should come down to one person who is clearly in charge and responsible for the device and that I believe would the the armorer in this case. The actor appearing on set may not have any idea if it is a completely fake prop or a real gun...they may show up and be given something and told just to do a draw.

Regarding the armorer, I feel it's their complete responsibility to know the condition and functioning of the device before it is handed out of their control and this includes CHECKING THE CHAMBERS AND THE BARREL (barrel should be CLEAR and you can see through it). The armorer should also make it clear that no one else is to handle the gun when it is handed over...they are responsible for watching the gun and what happens to it until it is back in their care. An armorer should know their job and responsibilities and if they're at all insecure/unsure they're not fit for the job.

I hope we can at least all agree on the part about the armorer.
 
By your definition then there is no such thing as right and wrong, good or bad, but only "opinions".
I categorically reject that.
Ethnic cleansing (a euphemism for genocide) is universally recognized as wrong.
Or are you going to convince me that it's just my opinion?
Well, I categorically reject your rejection. There is absolutely "right and wrong" and "good and bad"...in fact, I generally see very little "gray" area in those. Your opinion comes in when describing what you called people "revel in the misfortune of others" and their lack of character. I read the post and with the exception of a meme early on in the thread, no one was reveling... mostly pointing out the irony or "Karma" bestowed upon AB (in only some post). In fact, I don't see one case of anyone being happy someone died and or was injured.
 
Last edited:
Well, I categorically reject your rejection. There is absolutely "right and wrong" and "good and bad"...in fact, I generally see very little "gray" area in those. Your opinion comes in when describing what you called people "revel in the misfortune of others" and there lack of character. I read the post and with the exception of a meme early on in the thread, no one was reveling... mostly pointing out the irony or "Karma" bestowed upon AB (in only some post). In fact, I don't see one case of anyone being happy someone died and or was injured.
And absolutely nothing in your last two posts deals in the slightest way with the 'virtue signaling' tangent you attempted to derail this discussion into.
 
mostly pointing out the irony or "Karma" bestowed upon AB
The exact words were "karma's fun, ain't it?"
You conveniently left that out.
Definition of fun is revelry.
I don't see one case of anyone being happy someone died and or was injured.
Of course not. No one said that, certainly not me. You are missing the point. Maybe kicking a man when he's down is Ok in your book. Not in mine or any half way decent person.
Same thing when someone posted a political criticism of Colin Powell TWO DAYS after he died.
How low can you get?
 
:popcorn:

  • The gun guys all say "they would have checked".. is he a gun guy? and a gun guy / hunter with your level / knowledge / experience? You are implying he knows what you know.. (and some of these posts imply every US citizen gets some form of gun training at some point in their lives..)
  • He was handed a gun from a cart, and someone declared it as 'safe': "Cold Gun". In his experience, this is all that is needed, as he is expecting the armorer to have done their job!
  • It is also becoming apparent that:
    • on-set safety was an issue,
    • that the producer (who handed him the gun) was lax in their safety
    • and that "someone" was using those guns for target practice hours before.. (and seemingly neglected to tell anyone / ensure they were empty upon returning it to the "cold" cart..)
 
On the subject of actors checking weapons... I'm not sure that is entirely a good idea. The question here is "Are they even experienced enough to know what they are looking at?" I doubt that many of them are. There should be a chain of possession that ensures that they are never handed a weapon that is loaded with live rounds unless there is a legitimate reason for them to be doing so (perhaps showing actual target practice). Please know that I'm not up on what all is done, prep wise, to ensure that actors know their weapons capabilities, but ideally there would be some amount of training, and safety briefs involved.
 
The firearm was a Colt 45 revolver. It was supposed to be pointed directly at the camera so if blanks alone were in the chambers it would be very obvious. Can a layman actor distinguish a live round from a realistic bullet on a blank or a real bullet with the primer and charge removed just by looking in the chamber?
Don't think so. And removing the bullet from the chamber to check would be a serious safety violation I would think. Only the armorer should be loading /unloading the weapon.
Looks like a cavalier attitude toward firearms by crew members, an inexperienced armorer, and an AD who was fired from a previous set for a firearm safety violation all contributed to this tragic incident.
 
Maybe the entertainment industry needs to make a distinction between a "prop" and a "gun". A prop being something that looks like a gun but is non functional. A gun on the other hand is a device that is capable of causing serious injury or death and can only be handled by properly trained individuals.
 
Maybe the entertainment industry needs to embrace some rather simple 'Gun familiarization and safety' courses like the NRA has been suggesting to the most vocal anti-gun Hollywood stars (who seem to absolutely LOVE making money off of the very guns that they denigrate constantly).

I mean, they spend months researching and getting into a character that they may play one single time in their life, the least they could do is spend a few days learning basic firearms safety, nomenclature, and handling which they'll probably use their entire career!!!
 
Maybe the entertainment industry needs to embrace some rather simple 'Gun familiarization and safety' courses like the NRA has been suggesting to the most vocal anti-gun Hollywood stars (who seem to absolutely LOVE making money off of the very guns that they denigrate constantly).

I mean, they spend months researching and getting into a character that they may play one single time in their life, the least they could do is spend a few days learning basic firearms safety, nomenclature, and handling which they'll probably use their entire career!!!
100% agree.
Aren't they supposed to have safety meetings on movie sets to go over these things?
 
100% agree.
Aren't they supposed to have safety meetings on movie sets to go over these things?
Yes. But it's been reported that, in an attempt to control costs, non-union members were the ONLY ones on the set call for the day. It's also been reported that many safety complaints were lodged about said employees and lax safety and firearms handling protocols. I infer from that that their safety briefs were either lacking to the point of ineffective, or simply did not occur.
 
Yes. But it's been reported that, in an attempt to control costs, non-union members were the ONLY ones on the set call for the day. It's also been reported that many safety complaints were lodged about said employees and lax safety and firearms handling protocols. I infer from that that their safety briefs were either lacking to the point of ineffective, or simply did not occur.
Agreed. Regardless of traditional weapons safety rules, any and all safety protocols they were supposed to be using appear to have been flaunted.
 
For those of you saying the actor should have checked the firearm and made sure it was empty, I think you are misunderstanding the issue. From the reporting I've read, the gun in question was a Colt Single Action revolver. The big issue with revolvers is you can see into the cylinder and tell whether the gun is loaded or not. It's one of the first things I look for in any scene that has a revolver that faces the camera - if the cylinders are empty the scene loses all credibility. So unlike a firearm that uses a magazine where the cartridges are not visible, revolvers require dummy rounds to look realistic. In revolvers wax bullets (or some similar material) are often used if the open cylinder will be visible during firing. Oftentimes the cartridges will be loaded with just a primer, which is enough to fire the wax bullet. The wax can still dangerous but under the vast majority of circumstances not lethal. But they can be made to look identical to normal cartridges, which is the point.

So to say that the actor should have checked and made sure the gun was empty does not apply here. Actors and everyone else on the set rely on the armorer to make sure guns, whether prop or real, are safe for the scene in which they are to be used. Discharging a firearm directly at the camera is very common in movies. And think of the thousands of movie scenes that show an actor loading rounds into a magazine and then into a firearm and cocking it to make sure it is loaded. By the logic of making sure the gun should be unloaded such scenes could never have been filmed.

It's been stated in the press that the scene being filmed had the actor shooting directly at the camera. So the actor did exactly what he was supposed to do. If you are blaming the actor you might as well blame the screen writer for writing that action.

In my mind, the real fault lies with the armorer and the AD who picked up the firearm and handed it to the actor. The armorer's primary responsibility is safety. The AD should have verified with the armorer that the gun was in fact a 'cold gun' before passing it along.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_and_television_accidents
A bit late to this thread, but this is 100% correct. When you're dealing with a set of circumstances that require a firearm to really look the part from every angle, a simple visual check performed by a cast member is not going to cut it. The armorer is (or at least should be) far more experienced in telling the difference between a cold gun and a hot one, and has more advanced tools available than the Mark I Double Eyeball Assembly.

One very basic bit of set etiquette is that everyone does their own job and doesn't step on others' toes. This is important when you've got people with diverse but not necessarily overlapping skill sets working in very close proximity, and every team is going to have specific safety challenges come up. It might be high-voltage electrical equipment, it might be lights hot enough to make toast, it might be deep water, it might be pyrotechnics, it might be potentially aggressive animals, it might be something as mundane as extension cords posing a trip hazard if they're not taped to the floor.

Everybody's safety consciousness is tailored to their specific job duties, and it's up to the head of the respective teams to verify that they're operating safely. Critically, each of these teams reports to the AD. Often there will be a safety meeting and everyone will receive a basic level of instruction to avoid on-set hazards, but verifying that the camera-ready ammunition in a revolver is indeed fake is a little outside the area of expertise of even a prominent actor like Baldwin.

My guess is that his instructions to Baldwin were something like "For some shots, this revolver will be loaded with blanks. For other shots it will be loaded with inert rounds. They look real, but won't actually fire. In either case, please only use it as indicated by the script and the director. Don't play around with it during or between takes. Even blanks can still hurt you or somebody else if you're not careful. Give it back to the armorer once we're done shooting with it."

And normally that works. This time it just didn't, because the supposedly inert rounds were anything but.

TL;DR Baldwin probably did exactly what was expected and required of him, while Hutchins and Souza fell victim to negligence from the armorer in question and possibly the AD.

You'd think a rocketry forum would recognize that there's more than one safe way to do things. Sure, the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code specifies less than 125 grams of propellant and less than 320 N-s of total impulse, but that and many other traditional rules can be set aside by going through the relevant certification process and obeying additional rules.

Similarly, the traditional wisdom of never pointing a firearm at something that you're not willing to shoot can be set aside if required for specialized situations, as long as other safety considerations are followed stringently. Thus, you can have extremely convincing guns "fired" at the camera in movies while also keeping the odds of an injurious or fatal accident very low (this obviously being one those times where the odds are beaten). But the dozens of other precautions that must be put in place to allow an actor to safely "fire" a gun at the camera definitely put it in "don't try this at home" territory.
 
Last edited:
Maybe instead of trying to floss out someone to blame for this tragic event, Hollywood should just stop making movies with guns. These events keep happening even after decades of safety revisions and sadly are likely to happen again as long as deadly weapons are used as artistic tools. It seems glorification of violence and gun culture does far more damage than the boxoffice profits produced. Just a practical suggestion here, no virtue signaling intended.
 
Back
Top