filling spirals

[Blast it Tom!]

John, I don't know them but you can see they are nice folks from the way they run it. And what a challenge it must be; perhaps I was actually talking to Harry when I mentioned he's got a scad of very expensive inventory and the overhead of (what must be) a pretty expensive location, and there are so few places like that any more - and he added "Yeah, and your suppliers are your competitors!" which really brought it into focus. But I'm sure glad I can shop there, so many times you just want to put your hands on something before you buy it, or find something you didn't even know existed and now you must have it!

But i'd better quit before I divert the thread too much. Good essay about the hobby there!

 

[neil_w]

Build them the way you like, and for the reasons that matter to you.

Quoted for truth.

 

[DES]

I'm a Bondo advocate, and have been for many years. But I learned some years ago that just filling the surface spiral, the one in the glassine wrap, sometimes isn't enough to ensure a smooth final finish. Some tubes can have an even deeper spiral underneath the glassine (the one in the underlying Kraft paper wrap), and left unaddressed, over time it can expose itself in the final finish , perhaps due to changes in humidity, or perhaps due to the stress the tube takes from ejection pressure events. So with that last coat of paint one can have one's self thinking what a terrific finish on the model, only to have a spiral eventually appear over time, much to one's dismay.

John - what are you using for your metal flake? I like the large flake size in your orange and blue scheme.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Read my signature line for my viewpoint on spirals.

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

Read my signature line for my viewpoint on spirals.

Then why bother commenting? Go find a topic you do have interest in, and post there, while the rest of us try to actually have a productive discussion about spiral filling technique.

Opinion =! necessary to comment....

 

[Hobie1dog]

Then why bother commenting? Go find a topic you do have interest in, and post there, while the rest of us try to actually have a productive discussion about spiral filling technique.

Opinion =! necessary to comment....

My apologies, I'll make sure I never post anything negative in the future on this forum.

 

[John Brohm]

Des- the paint on Old 54 is Dupli-Color Metal Specks rattle-can paint, overcoated with Rustoleum Crystal Clear. Old 54 is my scratch-built L1 ship.

Coming back to the spirals question, Chris and Neil, and others in this thread have provided some excellent tips and advice on materials and methods. It's a good thread covering the means to address a topic that, let's face it, isn't the most fun. I think the takeaway isn't so much about the materials - whether your poison of choice is Elmer's CWF, or Bondo, or some other putty, or various primers, etc, it's more about picking a material/methods combination that you're comfortable with (eg: some folks don't like water-based materials, some folks don't like the fumes from solvent-based materials, etc), sticking with it, and then practice, practice, practice. Each of those materials and methods can deliver excellent results, but each of those methods also require elbow grease - ain't no way around that. And that's why some models may not be worth that kind of effort. Only the modeler can decide that.

One of the earlier questions was choice of tool to apply putty/filler into the seams. Fingers, credit cards, putty applicators - all kinds. Depends on how much sanding one wants to do. In my case, I've been using a Tamiya Paint Stirrer (readily available on Amazon) for years; I like the control, and the measured amounts of putty I'm able to manage with it. I also like the spoon end for creating small, tight fillets. But some may find that tool ridiculous - it's too small, taking way too much time to get the job done. Ok; no issue - try a different one. When it comes to finishing, the only smoking gun/magic wand I've ever found was Time.

A few more photos, below. A detail shot of my Steeler's rocket (all markings were painted except for the Steeler's logo and the roundel; those are vinyl markings prepared by Mark Hayes ), and a before & after shot of my Space Transporter America. For each model, Bondo was used in the tube seams, and in each case the fins were pre-finished with Silkspan and Nitrate dope. Both were painted with rattle-can paint. I'm confident CWF would have done just as well, it's just not my poison of choice.

 

[BABAR]

Has anyone tried papering over spirals? You WILL end up with at least one “seam”, but you can put on the “non-beauty” side of the rocket, maybe even incorporate the line into the paint scheme. One problem I don’t know how to fix, the paper will make the diameter SLIGHTLY larger than the nose cone, although if you 3D print your own cones you can probably account for it....

 

[neil_w]

Has anyone tried papering over spirals? You WILL end up with at least one “seam”, but you can put on the “non-beauty” side of the rocket, maybe even incorporate the line into the paint scheme. One problem I don’t know how to fix, the paper will make the diameter SLIGHTLY larger than the nose cone, although if you 3D print your own cones you can probably account for it....

I think it would most likely create as many problems as it solved, but I haven’t tried it. I did paper a balsa transition once, which worked out ok.

 

[neil_w]

a before & after shot of my Space Transporter America.

In addition to generally agreeing with everything John wrote above, I’m contractually obligated to express my admiration for that Space Transporter America whenever it is shown.

Sorry, I don’t make the rules.

 

[jrap330]

Why..I think it proves too many males are Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OSD) types...which is why I believe we try ourselves crazy. Let the trees, winds, rains rocket gods, and now high cost of engines drive you crazy. Damn that Haz Mat fee.

 

[Blast it Tom!]

I don't have OCD, I have CDO. It's like OCD but the letters are in their proper alphabetical order like they're supposed to be!

@John Brohm, I'm thinking I may have even spoken with you in the store, I kinda broke in to a discussion earlier this year and I seemed to recall that the gentleman said he liked to finish his rockets well. I was building my Estes Mercury-Redstone at the time. I would love to have the finishing skills that you have (and the time to do it). If the "Stillers" rocket wasn't good enough, that Space Transporter is jaw dropping! And the logo and Steelers lettering is vinyl? Must be mighty thin stuff, how do you get enough clear coat on it to hide the edges? They look painted on as well! And the black and gold on the fins coming to those perfect, sharp points, the perfect fillets, I'm gobsmacked! I'll admit, I like to fly purty rockets!

But I don't want this thread to spiral away from the original topic, so I will understand if the admins feel they've had their fill of this diversion! Can I get one more reply from john vis-a-s the vinyl at least?

 

[John Brohm]

@Blast it Tom! - Yes, I remember that discussion at Hobby Express, now that you mention it. Perhaps in spite of these COVID-encumbered times, we might cross paths there again. Would love to see how that Estes MR is coming along!

I can take no credit whatsoever for the vinyl on the Steeler's rocket; anyone that's worked with Mark (Stickershock) knows just how awesome his graphics and materials are. He did a perfect job with the logos. The clear coat is just regular old Rustoleum Crystal Clear.

Let's spiral back to the topic of the thread. I'm sure there's plenty of other spiral-filling combinations out there - let's have at it.

 

[Hooked On Rockets]

Then why bother commenting? Go find a topic you do have interest in, and post there, while the rest of us try to actually have a productive discussion about spiral filling technique.

Opinion =! necessary to comment....

See, it's comment like THIS that's why I have had little desire to sign in to TRF lately....
= Negative comments.

Joshua, did you look at his page and see what he went through?????
Did you look at the date that he joined TRF compared to the date that you joined TRF????
Did you notice that he has TEN YEARS more TRF than you???
He's got almost 9 years more than me....

Do you think that you've invented everything that you've discovered in rocketry???

Geeze, again, that was a pi$$ pour comment towards a long time TRF member!
I don't get it.....

Anyway, to keep on topic, I prime and sand and prime and sand until everything is right on the bigger rockets.
On the rockets that are smaller, the ones that you don't care about losing (the cheap smaller Estes and such), put what ever effort vs recovery vs your goals are.

And as a closing note/question:

@Angie

Is there some way that you could PLEASE help some of our fellow TRF members to get their NOSECONES unstuck from their DISCHARGE NOZZLES????

I would love to be more motivated to to sign in and share!
It's sad that a negative post is what it takes for me to sign in...
To stand up for a fellow TRF member????

 

[jrap330]

Des- the paint on Old 54 is Dupli-Color Metal Specks rattle-can paint, overcoated with Rustoleum Crystal Clear. Old 54 is my scratch-built L1 ship.

Coming back to the spirals question, Chris and Neil, and others in this thread have provided some excellent tips and advice on materials and methods. It's a good thread covering the means to address a topic that, let's face it, isn't the most fun. I think the takeaway isn't so much about the materials - whether your poison of choice is Elmer's CWF, or Bondo, or some other putty, or various primers, etc, it's more about picking a material/methods combination that you're comfortable with (eg: some folks don't like water-based materials, some folks don't like the fumes from solvent-based materials, etc), sticking with it, and then practice, practice, practice. Each of those materials and methods can deliver excellent results, but each of those methods also require elbow grease - ain't no way around that. And that's why some models may not be worth that kind of effort. Only the modeler can decide that.

One of the earlier questions was choice of tool to apply putty/filler into the seams. Fingers, credit cards, putty applicators - all kinds. Depends on how much sanding one wants to do. In my case, I've been using a Tamiya Paint Stirrer (readily available on Amazon) for years; I like the control, and the measured amounts of putty I'm able to manage with it. I also like the spoon end for creating small, tight fillets. But some may find that tool ridiculous - it's too small, taking way too much time to get the job done. Ok; no issue - try a different one. When it comes to finishing, the only smoking gun/magic wand I've ever found was Time.

A few more photos, below. A detail shot of my Steeler's rocket (all markings were painted except for the Steeler's logo and the roundel; those are vinyl markings prepared by Mark Hayes ), and a before & after shot of my Space Transporter America. For each model, Bondo was used in the tube seams, and in each case the fins were pre-finished with Silkspan and Nitrate dope. Both were painted with rattle-can paint. I'm confident CWF would have done just as well, it's just not my poison of choice.

View attachment 424921View attachment 424922View attachment 424923

amazing

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

A few more photos, below. A detail shot of my Steeler's rocket (all markings were painted except for the Steeler's logo and the roundel; those are vinyl markings prepared by Mark Hayes ), and a before & after shot of my Space Transporter America. For each model, Bondo was used in the tube seams, and in each case the fins were pre-finished with Silkspan and Nitrate dope. Both were painted with rattle-can paint. I'm confident CWF would have done just as well, it's just not my poison of choice.

That's some exceptional detail, particularly on the Space Transporter. Are all of those decals, or have you done paint for the edges etc. before laying down the decals?

 

[John Brohm]

On the STA, the black leading edges are painted, as is the black mid band on the silver corrugated section. The red sections on the fins are red decal film from Bare Metal Foil. The rest of the markings are decals I drew and then printed on my desktop HP color laser printer, using Bare Metal Foil laser decal film. Masking for paint was Tamiya tape. On the Steeler's rocket, same thing - Tamiya tape.

Coming back to the thread topic, so much about finishing is dependent on surface prep. That means spirals, including the underlying spiral, and good primer and fillet work - all the good techniques that Chris and Neil, and others, spoke about earlier in the thread. Paint just reflects what it's lying on; it seldom covers sins.

The first photo below provides a view of the forward end of the STA. The last two are a couple of shots of my interpretation of the old Estes #1358 F-61 Starfighter.

 

[Mx2]

Kind of new to all of this and I hope these pictures work. Taking others ideas this is how I do my spirals:

A. Mark all spirals to be filled with marker.
Using 120 grit, spin tube and lightly rough up surface, Usually a soft pass up and back To remove waxy covering. (see step C.)

B. Using ??-putty from Hobby Lobby. Dip finger in alcohol if needed, cover spirals “thinly“. If it makes little clumps don’t worry, don’t overwork putty. Set aside to dry in sun about 5 minutes, while shaking primer and get cordless drill.

C. I use dowels with tape to adapt the tube to drill & spin tube during process.

I start very lightly with 120 grit. 1 soft pass up and back with slow spin to remove chunks. Then green scratchy pad, a quick spin on 200 grit, 400 grit, then fine steel wool at a higher speed.
if needed touch up areas with putty, spinning smooth after. You will notice the spinning sanding creates heat, heat creates quicker drying of the putty. Give it five minutes and then spray primer.

While spinning rocket tube with drill spray primer. Wait 5 minutes or so. Use 400 grit, smooth, then steel wool.
Repeat as needed.
The process isn’t perfect but tube is done quickly. From start to finish, about 40 min. depending on outside temps.

spin when painting too! (as always light coats of paint)
View attachment 423018View attachment 423010View attachment 423011View attachment 423012View attachment 423013View attachment 423014View attachment 423015View attachment 423016

Someone said to make a quick video. o.k., I did, not perfect, but here you go:

 

[o1d_dude]

Someone said to make a quick video. o.k., I did, not perfect, but here you go:

Using that method I might be convinced to fill some spirals on a low power rocket.

A 3” tube or greater would require bit of construction to spin the tubes.

Good job!

 

[PatD]

Someone said to make a quick video. o.k., I did, not perfect, but here you go:

Very nice! That's a technique I haven't seen before, although I've seen lathe like setups for bigger tubes (finishing was a secondary use). Quick and looks to provide good results. I assume that is DupliColor or some other fast drying lacquer primer. That's what I use anyway. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Mx2]

A 3” tube or greater would require bit of construction to spin the tubes.

Biggest I have done is 55 mm/
2-1/4”, however, once a centering rod is made it should(?) work on 3”.+,

At a recent launch there was a 4 inch rocket on display (with spirals visible) which doesn’t offend me in the least but I thought if I had an hour with that cardboard body tube could I have improved the embellishment of the final product? Interesting thought....
Interesting challenge.

I’m not claiming this process brings perfect results but I believe potential improvement can be gleaned, quickly. Others may have a proven process that bring glass like surfaces. Excellent.

Or as stated by another rocket fanatic who’s not working towards perfect surface, “skip the filling of spirals and start with Filler Primer and call that good.”

There has been such amazing display in the skill of modeling on this site that I was/am hoping to contribute something and I hope some part of this is of benefit or could be improved to such point.

 

[o1d_dude]

Biggest I have done is 55 mm/
2-1/4”, however, once a centering rod is made it should(?) work on 3”.+,

At a recent launch there was a 4 inch rocket on display (with spirals visible) which doesn’t offend me in the least but I thought if I had an hour with that cardboard body tube could I have improved the embellishment of the final product? Interesting thought....
Interesting challenge.

I’m not claiming this process brings perfect results but I believe potential improvement can be gleaned, quickly. Others may have a proven process that bring glass like surfaces. Excellent.

Or as stated by another rocket fanatic who’s not working towards perfect surface, “skip the filling of spirals and start with Filler Primer and call that good.”

There has been such amazing display in the skill of modeling on this site that I was/am hoping to contribute something and I hope some part of this is of benefit or could be improved to such point.

Undoubtedly possible for me with a lathe-like construction but I don’t see myself spinning a 34 inch long tube that size hanging off the end of a Ryobi drill. Pretty sure that’s the same drill I have...built a lot of fences with it and the matching driver.

I’m a “wood butcher” and build all sort of weird but useful items from wood and hardware fasteners and such.

I salute your skills as a wood butcher, too.

 

[jrap330]

Thanks...amazing less than 10 min but how did primer dry in under a minute? Just air dry due to spin?

 

[Mx2]

Undoubtedly possible for me with a lathe-like construction but I don’t see myself spinning a 34 inch long tube ....

I did a 6 ft fiberglass 2-1/2”, petroleum pipe used on buried fuel tanks (rough exterior-smooth inside (free) and built a rocket out of it. Had to use a little different sanding framework. (See idea below)

In regards to shorter cardboard tube I could see, even with a hand drill, 3 or 4” and for longer, as you implied a creative lath-esk set up which I recognize you have those skills, Or possibly like an idea below:

I could see an angle iron lined with sand paper sheets then attach drill to tube and rest in cradle “V” and spin while applying pressure above and moving drill in and out to evenly work surface.
just one idea.

I be plumber and my carpentry skills I would be arrested for imitating one.

 

[Mx2]

.... how did primer dry in under a minute? Just air dry due to spin?

It was a warm/hot day. After applying putty or spraying filler and surface feels dry to touch I spin the tube and rub my hand up and down tightening grip which creates heat and helps dry it further and faster. My first passes with sandpaper are always gentle more so to build heat which continues the drying. The steel wool is what really makes it all happen taking it to a smooth surface.

 

[o1d_dude]

<snip>

I could see an angle iron lined with sand paper sheets then attach drill to tube and rest in cradle “V” and spin while applying pressure above and moving drill in and out to evenly work surface.
just one idea.

I be plumber and my carpentry skills I would be arrested for imitating one.

This!

BTW, the Carpentry Police have been defunded and we’re all on our own now so build away!

 

[Mx2]

This!

BTW, the Carpentry Police have been defunded and we’re all on our own now so build away!

I just blew my cereal milk out my nose! Pretty funny!

 

[PatD]

Thanks...amazing less than 10 min but how did primer dry in under a minute? Just air dry due to spin?

That made me wonder too. Noticed on a second watching that it is Rusto Primer Filler. Looked it up. Per the msds the main solvent is acetone with propane as propellant. Also says under physical characteristics that it evaporates faster than ether. So that would explain the dry time. Not that it drys that fast when painting normally.

 

[o1d_dude]

I attributed the quick dry time to the fact that 15 minutes on the clock was compressed into less than 8 minutes of video.

Was unaware of the acetone/propane link.

 

[Mx2]

Per the msds the main solvent is acetone with propane as propellant.....

Yup, quicker it dries probably not good for skin contact.

In this video I totally botched the application of proper PPE on my person. I had Nitrile gloves, (didn’t wear) and I usually spray outside but I didn’t have any way of packing the camera with me so I sprayed at the desk. Even sanding I usually walk outside of garage and just get out in fresh ventilation as I’m sure the dust is no good either.