Filling Spiral Seams: Yes or No?

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Yep, seam filler here (tubes and launch lugs). Back in my early rocketry days in the 70s, I didn't bother to mess with it much, but now, I'm much more into the aesthetic appearance of my models.

Did anyone really do it back then? As a kid I knew nothing about such things (and there was no internet to learn about them), but I imagine I would have done it if I knew about it, considering all the time I spend applying sanding sealer on my balsa. Learning that spirals could and should (?) be filled was one of my great revelations when I BARed last year.
 
I never fill the seams, I tried it but it was not worth the time and effort. For me I have learned to keep my builds as simple as possible. I have a huge collection of vintage rockets and I want to build them all so I keep my builds simple. Most of us have posted our builds with construction techniques. My advice is to look at the builds and see what you would be satisfied with. Chris has a wonderful site and his builds are top notch, but he takes the time to make his rockets look flawless. He also has some old rocket pictures on his site that he built back in the 70s, and they look great. Here is an old Centuri build he did back in 1975. No fillers, no primer just clean neat construction techniques. This is the look I strive for with my builds.
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2014/11/model-profile-centuri-aerobee-350.html?m=1
 
Wow, I wish my stuff looked that good back in the day. When I was a kid I used to brush paint everything with the old Testors model paint. I remember one WAC Corporal that ended up being yellow with a red nose and fins. Looked like I painted it with a stick.
 
Back in the 70s, seam-filling was not such a big deal as it is now. About the only birds I would apply the technique were on some contest rockets where I wanted to optimize laminar flow to reduce drag, or on scale models, of which I built only a couple. Also, I would fill seams on models that I put together for Estes in their 'Build-up' program. These models were expected to be built 'photo-quality' for display use by Estes reps. As for my sport birds and boost/glider pods - no seam filling. Looking back at some photos of my old models, I wince at the presence of visible spiral seams, wishing I had done a better job on the models than that. Oh, well, my new fleet is much improved.....
 
From the responses so far, the "Yes's" outweigh the "No's" considerably. I've already been using diluted CWF (or a similar DAP product) on all of my fins. Filling the spirals wouldn't take much more effort, I just couldn't decide if it was really worth it. The seams are so miniscule, I just thought a decent layer of paint would hide them.

If only ... paint often brings them out rather than hides them.

The way I look at it is that if yours was the first rocket with spirals, no way would you want to hide them, but the opposite is more the case. Therefore people do look and it shows more care put into the rocket. Personally I am moving towards easier builds, less stress when flying, but may do it anyway.
 
Consensus ? On TRF ???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave: :rofl:

Thanks to the upcoming election, that is the single, truest statement I have seen all week.


I fill them. I know my rockets will get rail burn and they'll end up with chips and scratches, but I love the look of a slick paint job. Flying is only a very small portion of this hobby. Learn to find thrill of construction and painting. Take pride in your rockets.

And always take two pictures of every rocket. One by itself. One of you with it. You never know when that will be the last time you see/fly that rocket. Rocket eating trees and drilling for oil can bring your beloved creation to its end.
 
I fill them. I know my rockets will get rail burn and they'll end up with chips and scratches, but I love the look of a slick paint job. Flying is only a very small portion of this hobby. Learn to find thrill of construction and painting. Take pride in your rockets.

I think that just about sums up my attitude as well.

I've been pondering putting all my lugs on very thin standoffs (like maybe 1/8" or so), just enough to keep the rod from scraping the body, or at least reduce it. Not sure how thick it would really need to be to make a difference, but it seems it couldn't hurt. Rail burn or rod rash or whatever seems preventable.

And always take two pictures of every rocket. One by itself. One of you with it. You never know when that will be the last time you see/fly that rocket. Rocket eating trees and drilling for oil can bring your beloved creation to its end.

Good advice!
 
And always take two pictures of every rocket. One by itself. One of you with it. You never know when that will be the last time you see/fly that rocket. Rocket eating trees and drilling for oil can bring your beloved creation to its end.

True dat. I have a superstition about pre-maiden flight photos on my RC airplanes so I don't take beauty shots with those until they fly. But rockets are a whole different story.
 
I'm also a semi-pro photographer, I don't have any phobias about pre-flight photos. Lol!

I was killing some time earlier watching Tim VanMilligan on his YouTube channel making a Parachute Duration competition model. When I was younger I really enjoyed competition rocketry, and I think maybe that's part of the reason why I can't decide whether or not I want to fill seams. Except for scale models, competition models barely even got any coloration added to them! Filling balsa grain? Heck, most of my finned models used thin plywood or even plastic sheet for fin material.

Then there's that whole nostalgia thing. The models I'm building now are mostly models that were around when I got started 35+ years ago and couldn't afford then. I kind of like the idea that if they do show some spirals it takes me back to a much younger, more carefree time in my life.

But I think for s***s and giggles, I just may fill the seams on two or three, just to see how they compare to the ones that don't get done that way. :D
 
I probably fill spirals only on a small percentage of the models I build. When I first became a BAR, I did it to most of them, but found that, except for a few rarely flown models, they get beat up pretty quick, at our club launch sites. So, now, it's just the scale models, or ones I want to look exceptionally good, knowing I won't fly them very often. Most of what I build gets flown a *lot*.
 
im one who it depends. sometimes I do sometimes I don't.
one thing ive been doing lately on rockets I fill the spirals on- do the filler/sanding before fins go on. its much easier doing both without fins especially on smaller diameter rockets.
 
Most of what I build gets flown a *lot*.

@dpower: Is that the aft end of a magician in your profile pic? Those fins look familiar.....

I'm going to try spiral filling on my Pro series II builds over the next few months just to add it to my skillset. Its not as hard as I thought it would be. Dull exacto knife, Carp. wood filler, an old credit card, and 220 sandpaper have produced fine results with relatively few manhours. Probably won't do it to everything, but when I want to, I'll know how now!
 
Almost always...but they often seem to come back to some degree after a few landings that miss the sod!

I'm currently throwing together a Trajector that I picked up in the Estes sale. It is pre-finished and the spirals are making me feel a little anal.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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OK, I did fill spirals on a couple of the models that were more obvious on Thursday. On Friday I sanded out the filler. Maybe I used too heavy a sandpaper, but I took the sheen off the BT's and didn't like what I was left with. All of my recent models got shot with a grey high-fill primer, that also got sanded after curing. Today I shot paint. I'm still unsure if it was worth the effort. I'll have to look closer after all the paint has cured to make a final judgement on sport models.
 
I use 220 grit, sanding lightly, to take off the bulk of it, then finish with 440. The glassine layer always gets roughed up a bit, but the filler/primer takes care of that 100%, at least in my experience.
 
OK, I did fill spirals on a couple of the models that were more obvious on Thursday. On Friday I sanded out the filler. Maybe I used too heavy a sandpaper, but I took the sheen off the BT's and didn't like what I was left with. All of my recent models got shot with a grey high-fill primer, that also got sanded after curing. Today I shot paint. I'm still unsure if it was worth the effort. I'll have to look closer after all the paint has cured to make a final judgement on sport models.

Whether filling the seams or not, I always ensure that I have removed the sheen from the tube so that primer will adhere to the paper.

Cheers,
Michael
 
I vote yes as well.
I fill mine with Titebond II, then give the whole tube 2 coats.
Sand it down smooth with 220 and put the fins on.
After the MMT goes in, I give the inside of the tube a coat to help protect it from the ejection charge.
Overall, it's a stronger tube and on hard landings you get less kinked tubes.

Woody-- let me make sure I understand this. You fill seams with Titebond II?, then coat the outside of the tube two coats of Titebond II glue? Wow. That's a new one on me. I haven't found Titebond glues to be particularly smooth sandable. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I'm interested in this.

Thanks

Marc
 
You understand correctly. You would think glue would gum up, but it doesn't if done a certain way.
I use 3M 3" wide, sticky back rolls. Stick a piece to a chunk of malamine coated particle board.
I turn the tube as I sand so it doesn't heat the glue.
Anything coarser than 180 doesn't work well. I usually just use 220.
The sandpaper comes in a grey and gold color. I find the gold lasts much longer when sanding anything, even metal.
Don't forget a coat or two on the inside of the tube to protect it from ejection charges.

Woody-- let me make sure I understand this. You fill seams with Titebond II?, then coat the outside of the tube two coats of Titebond II glue? Wow. That's a new one on me. I haven't found Titebond glues to be particularly smooth sandable. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I'm interested in this.

Thanks

Marc
 
Using just primer on the balsa parts to fill the open grain, I have found, will show up under different circumstances.
If in the sun on a hot day, it will swell.
Cold days, it shrinks.
Same goes for the red laquer automotive spot putty.
I use the Elmers wood putty, then give it couple coats of Titebond II.

Woody I hate to argue these points, but I must as mis-information like that hurts everyones finishing;

First: Everything sitting in direct sunlight on hot or cold days expands and shrinks a little it's the nature of all Materials. Actually everything has a specific "Thermal rate of Expansion" that can be looked up for just about any material in the universe.

That said: I've been using Cheapy Grey Auto Primer (The Cheapest I can get my hands on) for over 20years now without a single adverse effect, or re-surfacing of Seams or Grain, when applied over Raw cardboard, Balsa or Basswood. That is, as long as i've used the 3 coat process discribed earlier. As a matter of fact: Using the 3-coat and sand primer method; i've had FAR fewer after many launch seam problems on models from T2+ Micro Maxx size to BT-101 and 5" OD .021" thin wall craft paper tubes. The "usual" Landing stress seam creases just don't show up when using the 3-coat primer method.

If you've seen swelling or re-surfacing of spiral body seams under your primered and painted rockets, then there is some other reason.. Perhaps only a single primer coat. or something causing the swelling. If you've sealed the surfaces well, there should be nowhere for the parts to absorb moisture which would cause the swelling, beyond the normal sun radiation expansion.

Using glue (any glue) to coat entire body tubes seems to me to be an extremely slow, labor intensive process, particularly if used on larger model. I'd think it would be comparable to coating an entire model in Pactra (Now Mid-West) Balsa filler. To be sure; I would not use such a process on Micro models let alone anything larger.

Can you explain the thinking behind coating bodytubes and/or wood with a wood glue? Glues; any glue shrinks badly, certainly doesn't fill body tube seams very well, I've on occasion used Carpenters Glue over a sealing coat of Wood hardener on Balsa, Basswood & plywood fins, Balsa Nose cones and transitions. Very occasionally but only on models with fairly tight grain as the glues take so long to cure between coats.
Auto grey primer on the other hand can be applied in 3 heavy wet coats in under an hour and depending on local humidity can be ready for sanding after curing overnight. These sandable primers work exceptionally well with 220 to 360 DRY sandpaper. I NEVER sand primer any finer than 360 to ensure I've left just a little "Tooth" to help the paint adhear to the primer.

ps: Never wet sand any primer on Craftpaper or cardboard body rockets.. Primers are by their chemistry porous, allowing water or moisture to pass all the way to the cardboard body tube and/or wood causing warps and delamination of the body tube. DRY sand primer only. Wet sanding should be saved for the Finial cured paint coat to smooth the surface and remove minute dust, hair or other imperfections.
 
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Micromeister,
Don't knock it until you try it.
Titebond II dries in 24 hours.
I was a auto-body tech for 17 years.
Did custom paint work for 6 of those 17 years.
We all have our way of doing things.
I'm glad you have not had any problems with your finish work.
I would never recommend anything I haven't tried or done, or believe in.
Thanks for your opinions.
 
Micromeister,
Don't knock it until you try it.
Titebond II dries in 24 hours.
I was a auto-body tech for 17 years.
Did custom paint work for 6 of those 17 years.
We all have our way of doing things.
I'm glad you have not had any problems with your finish work.
I would never recommend anything I haven't tried or done, or believe in.
Thanks for your opinions.

Woody:
You didn't answer my question: Can you explain the thinking behind applying glue (any Glue) to the entire body of a model rocket?

My paint and finishing experience are decades long as well. That Said: Working on Metal based auto, bus, train and aircraft painting have only limited application to our hobby finishing. That your recommendation is based on your best belief is OK but I for one would like to hear the though process behind such an unlikely application.
 
Easy.
Titebond II adds strength to the BT, while staying somewhat flexible.
It does add a little weight, but a worth while trade off in my opinion.
When you glue your fins on it also helps keep them from snapping off. (Testing was done here on scrap balsa and body tube)
Adding a coat or 2 to the inside of the tube protects the tube from ejection charges.
You might think that it might get tacky and grab the chute, but I've never had that problem.
Even here in MI where humidity gets really high.
It also provides a stable base for primer.
Since I have been doing my building this way, I've seen far less chips in my finish.
Also less dents and dings in the balsa components.
 
I'm with John on this one. I'm trying to imagine the application process and I keep imagining a real mess, and a BT that is far from smooth, and heavy. Titebond II is not easy to sand without gumming up sandpaper. To each their own I suppose, but I would never even consider this idea.
 
I'm in the same boat. But whatever works for you is fine by me :) If I get bored this winter I may give it a shot on some (possibly) scrap tube.
 
I'm in the same boat. But whatever works for you is fine by me :) If I get bored this winter I may give it a shot on some (possibly) scrap tube.

Ditto Dick: I may give it a try over the winter also. if it's working for woody and he doesn't mind the extra time I can see a few possible applications Booster bodies/fincans come to mind.
 
If you've seen swelling or re-surfacing of spiral body seams under your primered and painted rockets, then there is some other reason.. Perhaps only a single primer coat. or something causing the swelling. If you've sealed the surfaces well, there should be nowhere for the parts to absorb moisture which would cause the swelling, beyond the normal sun radiation expansion.

when I was doing auto body work it was called "mapping" and it can come and go with temp changes.
a few causes to it, the major is not allowing filler or primer to dry/cure long enough.
fillers are either 2 part, which cure- chemical reaction, or the ready to use in a tube, which dries- evaporation. both have to be given more time than the label says to dry/cure and shrink. i allow at least 24 hours when it is dry and warm- will even put whatever it is im working on in the sun for some time but allow surfaces to cool down before sanding.
same thing goes with primer. i allow it to sit at least 24 hours to shrink.

then theres surface temps. if the surface temp of whats being sprayed is too hot or too cold-same goes with the paint- problems will show later on.

another cause is using too fine of sandpaper on the filler and 1st coats of primer. no finer than 180. 320-400 should only be used on last coat.
also not using some form of sanding block. on rockets i use a piece of scrap body tube. only about 1/3 of the diameter and about 6-8" long.


one of the greatest lessons ive learned is when painting 90% of the outcome is in prepwork.
prepwork is 50% labor and 50% patience.
 
when I was doing auto body work it was called "mapping" and it can come and go with temp changes.
a few causes to it, the major is not allowing filler or primer to dry/cure long enough.
fillers are either 2 part, which cure- chemical reaction, or the ready to use in a tube, which dries- evaporation. both have to be given more time than the label says to dry/cure and shrink. i allow at least 24 hours when it is dry and warm- will even put whatever it is im working on in the sun for some time but allow surfaces to cool down before sanding.
same thing goes with primer. i allow it to sit at least 24 hours to shrink.

then theres surface temps. if the surface temp of whats being sprayed is too hot or too cold-same goes with the paint- problems will show later on.

another cause is using too fine of sandpaper on the filler and 1st coats of primer. no finer than 180. 320-400 should only be used on last coat.
also not using some form of sanding block. on rockets i use a piece of scrap body tube. only about 1/3 of the diameter and about 6-8" long.


one of the greatest lessons ive learned is when painting 90% of the outcome is in prepwork.
prepwork is 50% labor and 50% patience.

50% patience? Really? How come I never figured out the root cause of why I'm so bad at it? We'll now that I get it I still won't be good because I still won't have enough. At least I won't blame the weather and the paint from now on.
 
50% patience? Really? How come I never figured out the root cause of why I'm so bad at it? We'll now that I get it I still won't be good because I still won't have enough. At least I won't blame the weather and the paint from now on.

talkin prepwork here. idk about you, but I spend more time building and prepping a rocket for paint than the actual painting. I could blame the paint and weather,too, but its me they sprays in unfavorable conditions and me that goes cheap on paint.

one product ive been wanting to try filling spirals but haven't yet is evercoat's slicksand. I have about a quart but just cant justify the cleanup involved.
 
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