Featherweight Ground Station Options

[Adrian A]

I'm starting a new production run for the Featherweight GPS system, and there are some choices to be made for which I would appreciate some feedback.

To date, the Ground Stations (GS) that that come in the nice blue boxes are comprised of a Featherweight Tracker, plus a ground station adapter board. This enables a user to disassemble a ground station and use the tracker in it with another ground station, if desired. In retrospect, it's not clear that this flexibility is needed or wanted, or even that users are aware of it. So I'm considering making a dedicated GS board that has all of the GS features built in, including battery charging, external toggle switch, etc. It would be indistinguishable with the current GS unless it's disassembled.


The integrated approach would also make it possible for the USB 2.0 micro connector to be used for data, in addition to charging like it is now. This would allow a user to connect a GS to their laptop if they want to use a terminal program or write their own interface software. The phone interface (which already does data logging) would still be active. I would expect this to be a very small niche, but this is critical for at least one user I know, so I'm wondering how many other people are out there that would be interested.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback.

 

[Buckeye]

I am interested in using the USB for data to a terminal program.

 

[cwbullet]

The data terminal over USB is a good option.

 

[manixFan]

If the GS would be cheaper, then that would be great. But I personally like the ability to borrow a ground station from a buddy and use the device as a spare tracker. I've done that for BALLS. But it's not a dealbreaker if I am trading that for better functionality. However I would not pay extra to get the logging capability, unless it provided some very compelling features. Given that it's unlikely Kevin will have time to write any software, and unless someone else writes something that becomes available for wide use, my guess is the vast majority of users will never bother with the USB port and just use the logged data from the phone.

Can someone provide some examples of how/why live USB output would be better or used? Are there mapping programs available that can take that data and display it in realtime on a laptop? I would like to better understand the benefits of the USB data out.

Thanks for asking for our input,


Tony

 

[Adrian A]

If the GS would be cheaper, then that would be great. But I personally like the ability to borrow a ground station from a buddy and use the device as a spare tracker. I've done that for BALLS. But it's not a dealbreaker if I am trading that for better functionality. However I would not pay extra to get the logging capability, unless it provided some very compelling features. Given that it's unlikely Kevin will have time to write any software, and unless someone else writes something that becomes available for wide use, my guess is the vast majority of users will never bother with the USB port and just use the logged data from the phone.

Can someone provide some examples of how/why live USB output would be better or used? Are there mapping programs available that can take that data and display it in realtime on a laptop? I would like to better understand the benefits of the USB data out.

Thanks for asking for our input,


Tony

One customer needs to track dozens of college teams at a large launch and interface with existing range facility software. Another customer (my day job) is writing extensive test software to automate and log environmental and functional testing of a closely-related product. I suspect that there are at least a few rocketry people who would rather write their own software than buy an Apple product.

 

[manixFan]

Good point about the dependance on Apple products, while it doesn't bother me, I do understand how that is a big issue for many folks. And if it's just text data out a USB port, that does open up a lot of possibilities for many platforms.

That launch sure sounds like America's Cup. I finally volunteered and will be there this year, I'm sure it will be a very interesting experience. Very cool that you are working on a product that will make life easier for a launch like that.

I'll go back though to one of my original questions though - will the data directly interface into existing mapping software in real-time or will it require additional software to get it to work? Along those lines, can the data output be user formatted or is it the output the same as the current data files? I'm more of a plug and play kinda guy, but I can begin to see how a dedicated GS with a better data interface could be very useful.

Finally, what is your anticipated ship date?

Thanks,


Tony

 

[Buckeye]

I'll go back though to one of my original questions though - will the data directly interface into existing mapping software in real-time or will it require additional software to get it to work? Along those lines, can the data output be user formatted or is it the output the same as the current data files? I'm more of a plug and play kinda guy, but I can begin to see how a dedicated GS with a better data interface could be very useful.
Tony

I assume the data will stream in NMEA format. I use u-center from ublox with my BRB900 receiver USB. Mapsphere and VisualGPS are other options that I know of.

 

[manixFan]

I assume the data will stream in NMEA format. I use u-center from ublox with my BRB900 receiver USB. Mapsphere and VisualGPS are other options that I know of.

Thanks for those apps and that link. Looking at the MapSphere site they have a GPS track editor that may be very useful for cleaning up the weird packets the often show up during flight. Even though I do most of my stuff on a Mac, I have a decent Windows laptop I can use for stuff like that. If the output is compatible with those types of apps, I can see how useful that could be.


Tony

 

[Adrian A]

NMEA compatibility is a good idea. That's not how it currently outputs, but it could be.

I would like to be shipping early-mid April, but there are a lot of ifs.

 

[Buckeye]

NMEA compatibility is a good idea. That's not how it currently outputs, but it could be.

I would like to be shipping early-mid April, but there are a lot of ifs.

What other output is there, if not NMEA? Something proprietary? If so, I recommend both. BRB reports NMEA as well as its own compact sentence.

 

[warnerr]

I tend to like dedicated devices. following Standards on outputs such as NMEA outputs adds value.

 

[manixFan]

I agree that a great solution would be to allow the user to choose either between your current output string or an NMEA compliant one. But for widest compatibility NMEA would seem to make it a 'plug and play' solution for a lot of the mapping software out there. I've already worked with the current output so am familiar with it, but after looking at some of the available mapping programs, NMEA sure seems like the way to go for real-time output.


Tony

 

[Adrian A]

There's a lot of useful data, particularly vertical velocity, that is not supported by NMEA strings. So it would make sense to output both

 

[warnerr]

hopefully a software toggle’ output nmea only’, ‘output velocity data’; ‘output all streams’ so folks could add on what they want.

 

[Voyager1]

I would love to have the USB option on my FW ground stations with output protocol options.

 

[FredT]

Bluetooth would be better.

 

[Buckeye]

Bluetooth would be better.

No way. Bluetooth Windows COM ports are flaky. A wired connection to the base station (ie, stationary) makes sense to me.

 

[manixFan]

Bluetooth would be better.

I think you kinda missed the whole point. The current system already has bluetooth, as would the new unit. The discussion is whether a dedicated ground based unit with USB data out via the Micro USB port would be marketable product.


Tony

 

[Adrian A]

Yes, the Bluetooth link to an iOS device running the Featherweight Tracker app will be there no matter what, and that will be the only way 95% of users will ever use it. (Pocket-size portability is important) But if more people would like to add a USB serial data I/O capability than would like to make the ground station convertible to a bare tracker, then that's what I'm here to find out. Since the USB connector is already there for battery charging, it's pretty inexpensive to add a UART/USB bridge chip to make the data lines of the existing connector functional.

 

[manixFan]

As I like to say, what are the odds you’ll regret adding that capability? Folks can still use the original trackers as base stations, I assume, but I know a lot of the guys in my group would like the real time mapping output. And since any existing ground stations can become trackers, no loss. I’ll ask at our meeting tomorrow as most of the guys have your tracking system.


Tony

 

[OverTheTop]

From a systems POV I would keep it as you have it already. Based on the metrics of our company it is far better to produce things like that. Less spares, less chance of assembly mistakes, less chance of shortages.

 

[Grandpa$]

You need to add another question to the survey.

5. I only have Android. Spending my money someplace else.

PS. I've seen this system work. Any hints as to when the "aFIP Android app in the planning stages." will be done? To paraphrase Henny Youngman, "Take my money, please."

And the "Henny who" posts start in 3 2 1

 

[manixFan]

At lunch no one could see a downside to your proposal. (Three of us are volunteers for the Spaceport Americas Cup, so that does factor into it a bit.) One guy is a hardcore Android guy and for him that would be the only way he could use your system.

Is this correct?:

• A new user can still buy two regular trackers and use the system as is.
• Or could buy a tracker and dedicated ground system with the data output via USB option.

And, since I own a base station already, would I be able to just take out the current tracker and replace it with a new dedicated unit? If so, that would really be a no-brainer since I gain capability and have an extra tracker, which is never a bad thing.


Tony

 

[Adrian A]

At lunch no one could see a downside to your proposal. (Three of us are volunteers for the Spaceport Americas Cup, so that does factor into it a bit.) One guy is a hardcore Android guy and for him that would be the only way he could use your system.

Is this correct?:

• A new user can still buy two regular trackers and use the system as is.
• Or could buy a tracker and dedicated ground system with the data output via USB option.

And, since I own a base station already, would I be able to just take out the current tracker and replace it with a new dedicated unit? If so, that would really be a no-brainer since I gain capability and have an extra tracker, which is never a bad thing.


Tony

Yes, with some caveats. I'm not sure I will do another run of the ground station adapter boards after the current batch is gone. After that if someone wants to convert a tracker into a ground station they would need to roll-their-own power source and enclosure, if any. Also, I haven't been planning to sell the dedicated ground station boards naked. The options and combinations are already pretty complicated to explain on the website.

 

[Kentherocket]

would there be an eta on the Android app? if u need a tester for said app I would gladly offer my phone and rocket to test them.
when would these updates to the gs be available?

 

[kjs]

Given that it's unlikely Kevin will have time to write any software

ouch... that hurt... ;-)

technically all I do is write software... lately though it has been non-stop for my day job so I can understand why you might say that...

if you wanted one simple feature added, what would it be...?

 

[manixFan]

ouch... that hurt... ;-)

technically all I do is write software... lately though it has been non-stop for my day job so I can understand why you might say that...

if you wanted one simple feature added, what would it be...?

Hopefully you understood I was just commenting on how busy your real job keeps you, and meant nothing negative by it! But, since you asked....: a combo screen where GPS and tracking data are combined, rather than having to flip between the two. Below is a mockup of what I mean. That way if I record the screen during a launch everything is all together and I don't need to flip back and forth.

Thank you for asking, I hope you don't regret it!


Tony

Combo screen:

 

[TonyL]

I would be a big advocate of a usb connection for a data dump to a PC. I am happy enough with the tablet for regular operation.

What "one feature"?
I agree with Tony on the combined page, I would want to know how the RX & TX batteries are doing, plus have the GPS shown. The sat info could be very compressed.
If I needed to aim lower, how about labels that persist on the Comm page rather than disappearing when data appears? They could be in tiny font and I would still be happy.

br/

the other Tony

 

[kjs]

a combo screen where GPS and tracking data are combined, rather than having to flip between the two

ok, I think we are simply saying - a better combined screen with relevant content when tracking a rocket.

How about we start with what maybe doesn't need to be on that page...

1- Do we really need the Ground station latitude, longitude, altitude? I agree we might want a warning for "lost blue tooth" or "lost lock", but I doubt you care what altitude you are currently at (the GS is basically 'you'). Thoughts?
2- I think we need to avoid putting the tracker selector spinning wheel on the tracking screen. I can guarantee you that someone will flick their screen when it is about to fade to black and accidentally switch to another tracker and not realize why they suddenly lost track... [an earlier version actually allowed you to swipe up or down to cycle through your trackers... and then someone accidentally did it during a flight... and then I removed that feature.] (we will revisit this as I think about tracking a two stage rocket... maybe that will be reserved for iPad only (mini and above) with more screen space...)

So, to be added to the "tracking screen" (might be a new screen that I work on so I don't break the existing one in the mean time...)

1- Indication of BlueTooth and LoRa comm status
2- Maybe red background and/or red text if something is wrong (battery low, no Comm, etc).
3- Lat/Lon of rocket being tracked
- (do we need ASL altitude, or just the AGL that is already there?)
4- Some indication / graphic of satellites being used
5- 'Most relevant' numbers from Comm screen (likely RSSI / SNR) [Adrian - which do you recommend?]

I will try to fit this on an iPhone 5c screen. my iPhone 4 might be too small...

Thoughts?

/kjs

ps- you can currently swipe left /right to go between the existing screens... slightly easier than finding the 'tab' at the bottom of the screen.

 

[manixFan]

Kevin,

Well....since you asked! I do feel compelled to point out that the iPhone 5c is the least used model of iPhone, and may not be a good choice to use to limit your screen layout. (I have a iPhone 6 I can send you, free of charge, which would be a much better baseline model.) Regarding your thoughts:

• I like the tracker selector wheel, if it's on another screen that will reduce clutter on the main screen, as long as there is a clear indication of the current tracker displayed
• as long as the GS GPS data is stored with the log data, it does not serve a lot of purpose on the display
• changing the color of the text would be very helpful to quickly indicate an issue, like green, yellow, red for battery levels
• a 'time from last packet received' would also be great. That would allow us to quickly determine the temporal accuracy of the reported data (potentially also with color coding as it ages)
• perhaps add elevation of the tracker as a number? The current elevation indicators are good, but it would be great to have the angle of the tracker displayed as a number without having to tilt the phone to see it
• group the most important data together by reducing the spacing between the list items: Altitude, VertV, HorzV, and Distance, then the battery levels
• not sure the battery levels need to be displayed twice

At the risk of stepping on your toes, I've attached an example layout that might work. But it's jhust that, an example to consider.

And I am serious about the iPhone 6 offer, just PM if interested.


Tony

Just an example of a combined tracker/GPS page: