FAA Form 7711-2 Waiver Application

[Kirk G]

Hey guys,
As we begin to look toward next year, I am beginning to look at how to apply for an FAA Waiver for our annual club launches.
Last year, I discovered the print-off form had become an auto-fill PDF file on-line, but we successfully completed it and got our waiver...within about 10 days.

THIS year, I have started 2 1/2 months early cause I had vacation this week, and discovered that the old 7711-2 no longer exists, and a new FAA 7711-2 (8-08) replaced it.
This form appears to be tailored for Airshows and Flight events for airplanes. (THE NAR ALSO RECOMMEND TWO MONTHS LEAD TIME!)

However, a look at NAR website guidance indicates that they know of the new form and have some suggestions on how to word things.
(*Note also that just cutting and pasting their words may also copy some misspelled words!) Caution! Make sure you read what they offer!

Has anyone else submitted anything for this purpose with an FAA 7711-2 form yet? Done your legwork for 2017 yet?

I notice they recommend/require a diagram of your launch site, LCO, launch line, emergency and fire response resources, etc.
(Guess I'm going to be learning how to draw this on USGS map, Google Maps screen capture and Photoshop...)
And they are asking for AGL (Above Ground Level) instead of MSL (Mean Sea Level) in altitude estimations and requests.

Any help or suggestions? Or has this appeared in a forum that I missed?

 

[tab28682]

It is my understanding that there is just one individual that takes care of all the waivers for each of the nine FAA regions. Eight regions in the lower 48 states.

Helps explain the request for and need for lots of lead time.

 

[NorthwoodsRockets]

Kirk G,
I send my requests here:
William CTR Fitchpatrick (Lynn)
Eastern Service Center
Operations Support Group, AJV-E2
Tactical Operations
Lockheed Martin Corp NISCIII
I'm guessing that you're in a more western region than me. I think I'm on the western edge of mine.
Send me a PM. I would be happy to send you my application. It has evolved a bit over the last six years or so based on different information requested, so it may bit a bit "non-standard" for other regions, but it worked here.
These folks have been great to work with.
Good luck,
Matt

 

[samb]

Hey guys,
As we begin to look toward next year, I am beginning to look at how to apply for an FAA Waiver for our annual club launches.
Last year, I discovered the print-off form had become an auto-fill PDF file on-line, but we successfully completed it and got our waiver.

So, are you re-applying for the same flying site ? If so, great ! You already have the location information needed for question #8 Area of operation.

THIS year, I have started 2 1/2 months early cause I had vacation this week, and discovered that the FAA 7711-1 no longer exists, and FAA 7711-2 replaced it.
This form appears to be tailored for Airshows and Flight events for airplanes. THEY ALSO RECOMMEND TWO MONTHS LEAD TIME!

However, a look at NAR website guidance indicates that they know of the new form and have some suggestions on how to word things.
(*Note also that just cutting and pasting their words will also copy some of their mis-spelled words!) Caution! Make sure you read what they offer!

Spelling notwithstanding, I used that boilerplate as an attachment that I referred to in question #7 Description of proposed operation:

"Authorization for Class 2 high power rocket launches in accordance with FAR 101. See attached for additional information."

Has anyone else submitted anything for this purpose with an FAA 7711-2 form yet? Done your legwork for 2017 yet?

I notice they recommend/require a diagram of your launch site, CFO, launch line, emergency and fire response resources, etc.
(Guess I'm going to be learning how to draw this on USGS map screen caps and Photoshop...)
And they are asking for AGL (Above Ground Level) instead of MSL (Mean Sea Level) in altitude estimations and requests.

Last year I requested authorization for 3 different sites using form 7711-2, all of which were approved, NONE required a map of any kind. I don't intend to provide any when I re-apply for 2017.

Any help or suggestions?

The FAA contacts link on the NAR site was accurate for my state in 2016. I called that extremely helpful person who answered all my questions and expedited my requests.

Or has this appeared in a forum that I missed?

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?131536-FAA-Form-7711-2-Waiver-Application

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?31967-Waiver-and-form-7711-2 especially post #7

 

[Kirk G]

Hey guys,
Thanks for all the help!

I have since learned that the information on the NAR website are guidelines and tips on where to find information for registering a NEW launch site...and it has become clear that if nothing major has changed,
you don't need to go through all that just to get a renewal.

Yes, I am going to resubmit an FAA Form 7711-2 (8-08)... I simply didn't recognize that it was the same form I used last year, and so went looking for information about "a new form".
I just confused myself when I found the 8 year old NAR guidance that talks about a "New Form".

I've got the guidance of an old hand from in our club. We're going to be fine.
Thanks everyone.

 

[rcktnut]

Last year I requested authorization for 3 different sites using form 7711-2, all of which were approved, NONE required a map of any kind. I don't intend to provide any when I re-apply for 2017.

Were these sites already authorized or new sites?

 

[samb]

Were these sites already authorized or new sites?

One was new. Two were carry-overs.

 

[rcktnut]

One was new. Two were carry-overs.

Just wondering now how the FAA could determine altitude granted without a map, with the new separation rules. Do they go by the honor system now?

 

[Kirk G]

Just wondering now how the FAA could determine altitude granted without a map, with the new separation rules. Do they go by the honor system now?

How do you mean?

I have no problem reading a Topo map and seeing that our altitude from the launch site is 600 ft MSL. If the FAA wants to know how high we want a waiver for, 10,000 ft for K motors would be fine. So, do they want us to subtract 600 from 10,000 or is the 600 added on? Makes a difference of reporting 9400 or 10,600...

 

[rcktnut]

Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut View Post
Just wondering now how the FAA could determine altitude granted without a map, with the new separation rules. Do they go by the honor system now?

How do you mean?

I have no problem reading a Topo map and seeing that our altitude from the launch site is 600 ft MSL. If the FAA wants to know how high we want a waiver for, 10,000 ft for K motors would be fine. So, do they want us to subtract 600 from 10,000 or is the 600 added on? Makes a difference of reporting 9400 or 10,600...

What I mean is without a map of your launcher location, how can the FAA grant a waiver if they have no idea of where the location of roads, occupied buildings, etc. are located in relation to your launcher location. The minimum clearance to an occupied building, etc. is 1,500 ft. In that case you are eligible for a 6,000 ft. waiver barring no other circumstances that the FAA feels the need to lower that waiver. I thought that was the reason to provide a map to the FAA, so they can check your separation distances. We do that.

 

[samb]

Just wondering now how the FAA could determine altitude granted without a map, with the new separation rules. Do they go by the honor system now?

Perhaps. I was prepared to comply if requested. If I have the opportunity to bring up a new site next year I'll ask them.

 

[Kirk G]

What I mean is without a map of your launcher location, how can the FAA grant a waiver if they have no idea of where the location of roads, occupied buildings, etc. are located in relation to your launcher location. The minimum clearance to an occupied building, etc. is 1,500 ft. In that case you are eligible for a 6,000 ft. waiver barring no other circumstances that the FAA feels the need to lower that waiver. I thought that was the reason to provide a map to the FAA, so they can check your separation distances. We do that.

I thought the FAA are responsible for the airspace above us.
How can they be responsible for the ground separation from buildings and roads?
That's not their jurisdiction, is it?

It sounds like someone has confused insurance regulations with FAA Waiver permit renewal.
Or am I wrong?

 

[samb]

I thought the FAA are responsible for the airspace above us.
How can they be responsible for the ground separation from buildings and roads?
That's not their jurisdiction, is it?

It sounds like someone has confused insurance regulations with FAA Waiver permit renewal.
Or am I wrong?

It is hard to keep it all straight. FAR 101.25 has this separation distance in the operating limitations for Class 2 and Class 3 rockets:



§ 101.25 Operating limitations for
Class 2-High Power Rockets and
Class 3-Advanced High Power Rockets.

When operating Class 2-High Power Rockets or Class 3-Advanced High
Power Rockets, you must comply with the General Operating Limitations of
§101.23. In addition, you must not operate Class 2-High Power Rockets or Class
3-Advanced High Power Rockets—

(a) At any altitude where clouds or obscuring phenomena of more than
five-tenths coverage prevails;

(b) At any altitude where the horizontal visibility is less than five miles;

(c) Into any cloud;

(d) Between sunset and sunrise without prior authorization from the FAA;

(e) Within 9.26 kilometers (5 nautical miles) of any airport boundary without
prior authorization from the FAA;

(f) In controlled airspace without prior authorization from the FAA;

(g) Unless you observe the greater of the following separation distances from
any person or property that is not associated with the operations:

(1) Not less than one-quarter the
maximum expected altitude;

(2) 457 meters (1,500 ft.);


(h) Unless a person at least eighteen years old is present, is charged with ensuring
the safety of the operation, and has final approval authority for initiating
high-power rocket flight; and

(i) Unless reasonable precautions are provided to report and control a fire
caused by rocket activities.




Perhaps, in my case, the latitude and longitude specified was enough to verify a site in very low population density Texas cow pasture IDK. In the event we file a claim, I'm sure the insurance adjuster will want a site map with all relevant safety code/NFPA 1127 distances marked.

 

[rcktnut]

This from the NAR website:You have to decide how high you want to fly rockets based on rules in the new 14CFR101, NFPA1127, and the NAR Safety code which are now aligned. Please read the NAR safety code and determine what altitude could be allowed based on the surrounding buildings and roads to your launch site. Note that there is a new wrinkle in site planning in that the FAA has imposed a variable setback (1/4 the expected altitude but at least 1,500&#8242 from persons or property not associated with the launch, instead of the previous standard (and NFPA standard) of 1,500′. You may need to take this into account in renewing waivers from previous years.