FAA Class 1 H motors

[Handeman]

I've seen several threads recently that seemed to confuse the FAA Class 1 requirement. It seemed there are some that think high power motors are excluded from being FAA Class 1 rockets.
Here is the FAA FAR Regulation

§ 101.22 Definitions.

The following definitions apply to this subpart:

(a) Class 1—Model Rocket means an amateur rocket that:

(1) Uses no more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant;

(2) Uses a slow-burning propellant;

(3) Is made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic;

(4) Contains no substantial metal parts; and

(5) Weighs no more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces), including the propellant.

(b) Class 2—High-Power Rocket means an amateur rocket other than a model rocket that is propelled by a motor or motors having a combined total impulse of 40,960 Newton-seconds (9,208 pound-seconds) or less.

(c) Class 3—Advanced High-Power Rocket means an amateur rocket other than a model rocket or high-power rocket.

[Doc. No. FAA–2007–27390, 73 FR 73781, Dec. 4, 2008]

Nowhere does the Class 1 definition mention anything about motor designation, impulse, thrust, etc. To be Class 1, you must meet the requirements 1 through 5. What I'm concerned about here is item no. 1.

I don't know of any commercial G motors that have more than 125 grams of propellant. What I did was go to https://www.thrustcurve.org/ and create a list of H sized motors that meet the FAA requirement #1 for being a Class 1 rocket. I did NOT include any hybrid motors, those are a subject for another time.

It should be noted that at least Aerotech, I didn't check the others, list propellant weights for some motors as 125.0 grams while thrustcurve.org listed them higher. I did not include them on the list. I use the highest value which was from thrustcurve.org. I don't know what the FAA would consider the definitive value, maybe the manufactures figures. Obviously they can't weigh the propellant of a motor that was already used and you can't violate anything if you don't use the motors so there has to be some reference used. This might be something the court has to decide.

Anyway, attached is my list of H sized motors with not more then 125 grams of propellant and would then meet the propellant requirement for FAA Class 1 rockets.

View attachment H motors that are class 1.pdf

 

[mcderek]

Very nice. Thanks for putting the list together!

 

[gwolski]

Great list Jeff! One question - can anyone help me understand what requirement #2 really means? Slow-burning propellant - what does that include/exclude? Talk about vague!

Cheers!

 

[MarkH]

Class I being no waiver required and Class II, FAA waiver is required?.

 

[rocketsmith]

Slow burning propellant would be a deflagrating type, something that burns rather than explodes, such as compressed black powder (Estes type) and APCP (Aerotech type) or sugar based formulas. Double base propellants and Zinc-Sulfer micrograin formulas are prohibited because they burn fast enough to be considered explosive, IIRC.

 

[gwolski]

Slow burning propellant would be a deflagrating type, something that burns rather than explodes, such as compressed black powder (Estes type) and APCP (Aerotech type) or sugar based formulas. Double base propellants and Zinc-Sulfer micrograin formulas are prohibited because they burn fast enough to be considered explosive, IIRC.

That makes sense - should've remembered the deflagration point from the myriad of past ATF discussions.

Thanks!

 

[T-Rex]

I've been sorta wondering about this myself. The Level 1 application says "FAA Waiver (if required)". So as long as you meet the Class one requirements, no waiver is required?

Back to the lab, Igor, we have designing to do!! <cue old horror movie music>

 

[plano-doug]

So as long as you meet the Class one requirements, no waiver is required?

Yes. For all intents and purposes, you can simplify that to...

1) not more than 125g of propellant and
2) loaded rocket mass not exceeding 1500g.

So it's possible to fly HPR at some launches that are otherwise considered LPR events. I had a couple teenage proteges a few years ago, and they were able to fly an H128 (IIRC) under my supervision at a DARS LPR launch.

Doug

.

 

[shockie]

The NAR certainly would not allow a NAR member to fly an H without NAR L1 certification, unless it was their 1st H for initial L1 HPR certification per NFPA regulations.

ANd according to NFPA 1127 a non-NAR member can't even buy an H motor, even if they are 18 or 21, unless the motor is to be used for their 1st initial NAR L1 flight. You can insert TRA where I say NAR.

Of course, none of this prevents a NAR member from buying an H motor from 10 differing HPR vendors if they so desired, because the 10 vendors don't know what the other 9 are doing or not doing. CAn you say loophole?

Anyway here in Indiana where there is no NFPA 1127, Are there in any in state Indiana HPR vendors that would sell me as many H motors as I would like? I'm pretty sure that an out of state vendor wouldn't sell to me unless I showed proof of NAR/TRA membership.


Here's what I would propose. You don't have to be a member of the NAR or TRA to do H motor HPR. You just have to be 18 or 21 yrs of age......and you have to pay a one-time fee to take a special L1 test that allows the person to buy and fly H motors only, as regular L1 cert allows also the use of IJ motors. It would be sort of a starter HPR certifcation for adults. The person could later upgrade his starter cert to a full cert if he/she decides they want to do larger HPR that requires clubs and waivers.


I could then buy as many H motors as I want from out of state HPR vendors and then I could launch as many as I wanted without having to file for any FAA waviers. I would be completely legal.

comments?

Terry Dean

 

[Wayco]

I'm looking at this from a different angle. I have my L-1 and launch all my rockets (including my LOC Nuke HPR) with the local club using their waiver, except for one day a year. On new years eve, I launch with some offroad friends of mine out in the desert. They are responsible for my involvement in rocketry and really have no knowledge of the laws regarding our sport. I'm planning on showing off my Nuke with a HPR motor but want to stay within the law. Now I know that as long as I choose a motor with less than 125 grams of propellant I can launch without a waiver.
As far as shockie's idea of a "special" license for just H motors, why bother? The real expense for you L-1 Cert. is becoming a member of NAR and building a rocket. The certification paperwork doesn't cost anything, and the test is flying your rocket successfully. Wouldn't you have to do that anyway? Seems to me we already have a simple and effective way of determining the capabilities of a prospective HPR rocketeer.

 

[DAllen]

The NAR certainly would not allow a NAR member to fly an H without NAR L1 certification, unless it was their 1st H for initial L1 HPR certification per NFPA regulations.

ANd according to NFPA 1127 a non-NAR member can't even buy an H motor, even if they are 18 or 21, unless the motor is to be used for their 1st initial NAR L1 flight. You can insert TRA where I say NAR.

Of course, none of this prevents a NAR member from buying an H motor from 10 differing HPR vendors if they so desired, because the 10 vendors don't know what the other 9 are doing or not doing. CAn you say loophole?

Anyway here in Indiana where there is no NFPA 1127, Are there in any in state Indiana HPR vendors that would sell me as many H motors as I would like? I'm pretty sure that an out of state vendor wouldn't sell to me unless I showed proof of NAR/TRA membership.


Here's what I would propose. You don't have to be a member of the NAR or TRA to do H motor HPR. You just have to be 18 or 21 yrs of age......and you have to pay a one-time fee to take a special L1 test that allows the person to buy and fly H motors only, as regular L1 cert allows also the use of IJ motors. It would be sort of a starter HPR certifcation for adults. The person could later upgrade his starter cert to a full cert if he/she decides they want to do larger HPR that requires clubs and waivers.


I could then buy as many H motors as I want from out of state HPR vendors and then I could launch as many as I wanted without having to file for any FAA waviers. I would be completely legal.

comments?

Terry Dean

So if you don't have to be a member of TRA or NAR then what organization keeps track of all the certified non-members out there? How does this organization generate a stable revenue source to cover costs? OR do you expect the NAR and TRA to maintain such records at what is essentially no benefit to them?

 

[gagreen]

terry there is a lot going on in your post.

NAR or tra certifies ppl in hpr for one big reason, Liability. I am not speaking of liability of the club or even insurance tho those may be included. The nar and tra are sort of our hobbies esrb. the two organizations are in a constant battle with outside influences to keep our hobby going, to keep our hobby legal and going smoothly we need less and less govt intervention. Technically, and it usually starts a debate that goes on and on and on here with the cert process, is that a state or federal law requiring a certification to do something, the cert process must be handled through a govt agency. so you asking about buying a lot of h's, sure you may be "legal" but get certified. The cert process gives our hobby an ere of responsibility and accountability to keep govt agencies happy.

The one time cert fee on the other hand is something that i never see happening at least through the nar, dont know tra very well but highly doubt it from them either. The associations do not want uninsured folks out flying hpr even if they dont have to have a waiver, and personally neither do i. Trip said in his state of the nar address that we are "one accident away from being illegal". flying hpr def increases your chance to cause property damage or worse, esp if flying outside the nar safety standards, and if you did go through a roof due to no ejection, a lawsuit like that would be pretty big news and bring in unwanted bad press.

60 bucks a year is pretty cheap imho, i am not rich but that is more reason for me to pay to be a member. The insurance is extremely important. For the price of 2 h's you can be a member, or for 6 3packs of d motors. insane good value. So you probably could order a bunch of cert motors from dif vendors and fly safely in a ton of places in the fields of indiana but is it really worth it?

 

[mikec]

So it's possible to fly HPR at some launches that are otherwise considered LPR events.

As long as your field meets the additional clearance requirements in the HPR safety code, this is true.

 

[bobkrech]

Just want to point out several things.

1. The current FAA regulations combine the old FAA model rocket and old FAA large model rocket definitions into a single new definition: Class 1 rockets = rockets you can fly without a waiver from or notifications to the FAA.
2. The FAA doesn't care about anything other than propellant weight for requiring a waiver.
3. This change now brings the US in conformity with the existing international hobby rocketry standards.

Certification is a different story. This is a legal requirement in any state that has incorporated NFPA 1122 and 1127 into their state laws, or have adopted certain NFPA building and fire codes into their state and local laws.

1. If the above applies in your town and/or state, you must be certified by a national organization to legally launch high power rockets, e.g. > G-impulse, > 80 N average thrust, and motors containing titanium or other spark generating materials.
2. This has nothing to do with the FAA.
3. You still must abide by high power separation distances and minimum field dimensions to comply with the above. e.g. you can't launch an H-impulse motor from a high school football or soccer field.

Bob

 

[jimzcatz]

Here's what I would propose. You don't have to be a member of the NAR or TRA to do H motor HPR. You just have to be 18 or 21 yrs of age......and you have to pay a one-time fee to take a special L1 test that allows the person to buy and fly H motors only, as regular L1 cert allows also the use of IJ motors. It would be sort of a starter HPR certifcation for adults. The person could later upgrade his starter cert to a full cert if he/she decides they want to do larger HPR that requires clubs and waivers."





That is without a doubt the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How new are you to this hobby? I mean,cmon...get real.:bangpan:"

 

[jimzcatz]

OH, L1 does NOT allow J motors!!

 

[edwinshap1]

The NAR certainly would not allow a NAR member to fly an H without NAR L1 certification, unless it was their 1st H for initial L1 HPR certification per NFPA regulations.

ANd according to NFPA 1127 a non-NAR member can't even buy an H motor, even if they are 18 or 21, unless the motor is to be used for their 1st initial NAR L1 flight. You can insert TRA where I say NAR.

Of course, none of this prevents a NAR member from buying an H motor from 10 differing HPR vendors if they so desired, because the 10 vendors don't know what the other 9 are doing or not doing. CAn you say loophole?

Anyway here in Indiana where there is no NFPA 1127, Are there in any in state Indiana HPR vendors that would sell me as many H motors as I would like? I'm pretty sure that an out of state vendor wouldn't sell to me unless I showed proof of NAR/TRA membership.


Here's what I would propose. You don't have to be a member of the NAR or TRA to do H motor HPR. You just have to be 18 or 21 yrs of age......and you have to pay a one-time fee to take a special L1 test that allows the person to buy and fly H motors only, as regular L1 cert allows also the use of IJ motors. It would be sort of a starter HPR certifcation for adults. The person could later upgrade his starter cert to a full cert if he/she decides they want to do larger HPR that requires clubs and waivers.


I could then buy as many H motors as I want from out of state HPR vendors and then I could launch as many as I wanted without having to file for any FAA waviers. I would be completely legal.

comments?

Terry Dean

hmm, neither NAR or TRA would ever allow someone to pay a 1 time fee and then go out on their own throwing caution to the wind, especially because when the government looks at why the forest burnt down, they'd find out you had some sort of NAR or TRA backing.

and the list of non class 2 HPR motors is very small.

in addition, it's just a bad idea. what works now works because its regulated.
and even if 10 vendors sell 10 motors to you, abeit unknowningly, you can only burn 1 at a time for cert purposes. if you succeed you can use em as much as you want, if you fail, you just launch again...if you're thinking this is a legitimate idea i'd suggest you go work with some HPR and find out why this is a terrible idea.