Exemption of NFPA1127 using section 1.3.3

[Off Grid Gecko]

You guys seem to be making quite a bit of fuss when we don't even know what product he's looking at manufacturing.
There are rocket clubs outside of NAR and Tripoli don't you know?

There's actually a test stand (I believe) in southern cali where you can test you liquid fuel designs if you are a corp making your own sounding rockets.

Not sure, but I don't think Elon has an L2.

Fred, if you haven't already deserted the forum, Call CTI in Canada and tell them what you are up to. If you want to set up a test stand there are also some extra regs you need to look at, contact the local Fire Dept and get that figured out. Depending on the test site there may be specific requirements, but in any case, the local FD likes to know if you're burning anything, and giving them your location and a time will prevent "false alarms" from passersby calling in a "fire" at your location. You can also be in direct contact with them when things are going down. Don't think you'll need a truck on site for a H or I static fire but I dunno your local department. They might just want an excuse to come out and watch.

CTI makes custom motors as well, so they might be able to help you know what other regs you may need to look out for and ensure compliance. Or like someone said, check out the cesaroni website and see if the data they have is already good enough for what you need.

I will admit it seems a bit odd to do static fire tests for Class2 motors, specially at the bottom of that power band, but heck I've done static fires on C engines for untested airframes. Sometimes it's just fun to do in its own right. Just make sure you take any precautions necessary, let the right people know what you are doing, and make sure you do all of your homework and follow all of the local laws and regs. An H motor far exceeds your typical firework and the local Fire Dept would be my first stop, even before you try to get a motor.

You can get your L1 also and then order them direct, but even in that case everything I've said above still applies to a static fire test. You need to have proper containment and safety baricades in place. A 2lb slug coming at you at 80lbs of thrust or more is not something to take lightly.

 

[cbrarick]

You guys seem to be making quite a bit of fuss when we don't even know what product he's looking at manufacturing.
There are rocket clubs outside of NAR and Tripoli don't you know?

given the other L3's in the discussion, Steve, Prfessor (and leastly) me, I'd honestly say the answer of rocket clubs outside the NAR and TRA in the United States that the three of us haven't heard, no.

There's actually a test stand (I believe) in southern cali where you can test you liquid fuel designs if you are a corp making your own sounding rockets.

FAR

Not sure, but I don't think Elon has an L2.

but he's got hundreds of engineers with advanced degrees in the appropriate fields.

Fred, if you haven't already deserted the forum, Call CTI in Canada and tell them what you are up to. If you want to set up a test stand there are also some extra regs you need to look at, contact the local Fire Dept and get that figured out. Depending on the test site there may be specific requirements, but in any case, the local FD likes to know if you're burning anything, and giving them your location and a time will prevent "false alarms" from passersby calling in a "fire" at your location. You can also be in direct contact with them when things are going down. Don't think you'll need a truck on site for a H or I static fire but I dunno your local department. They might just want an excuse to come out and watch.

good idea. Most US departments would classify static burns of solid motors as (road) flares. I occasionally treat my neighbors to a evening show with the full blessing of the fire department (it probably helps i'm a member there)

CTI makes custom motors as well, so they might be able to help you know what other regs you may need to look out for and ensure compliance. Or like someone said, check out the cesaroni website and see if the data they have is already good enough for what you need.

hmm. I want to be your direct competitor. Can you help me start up? don't be surprised if you get laughed at.

I will admit it seems a bit odd to do static fire tests for Class2 motors, specially at the bottom of that power band, but heck I've done static fires on C engines for untested airframes. Sometimes it's just fun to do in its own right. Just make sure you take any precautions necessary, let the right people know what you are doing, and make sure you do all of your homework and follow all of the local laws and regs. An H motor far exceeds your typical firework and the local Fire Dept would be my first stop, even before you try to get a motor.

You can get your L1 also and then order them direct, but even in that case everything I've said above still applies to a static fire test. You need to have proper containment and safety baricades in place. A 2lb slug coming at you at 80lbs of thrust or more is not something to take lightly.

or find a mentor who can help you with way better information. Like the debate about static burning vertically vs horizontally, and how vertical burns are compensated for the case & propellant weight. I'd probably choose a level 2 or 3 with a lot of EX experience.

 

[Off Grid Gecko]

given the other L3's in the discussion, Steve, Prfessor (and leastly) me, I'd honestly say the answer of rocket clubs outside the NAR and TRA in the United States that the three of us haven't heard, no.


FAR

but he's got hundreds of engineers with advanced degrees in the appropriate fields.

good idea. Most US departments would classify static burns of solid motors as (road) flares. I occasionally treat my neighbors to a evening show with the full blessing of the fire department (it probably helps i'm a member there)

hmm. I want to be your direct competitor. Can you help me start up? don't be surprised if you get laughed at.

or find a mentor who can help you with way better information. Like the debate about static burning vertically vs horizontally, and how vertical burns are compensated for the case & propellant weight. I'd probably choose a level 2 or 3 with a lot of EX experience.

Well, there's at least one that I never see mentioned on this forum, and they happen to run the test site that I mentioned in California, but I won't muddy the waters. <<< -- I wrote this I won't delete it but read too fast, you did mention who I had in mind.

And exactly to my point, we don't know this person's level of expertise, education, etc. etc. etc. I was just providing an alternate viewpoint and at the same time hoping to inject the idea that there's a LOT more to regulation than NFPA1127 and the FAA, especially when you walk outside the narrow scope of "hobby rocketry."
I would hate for someone to see half the picture through the viewpoint of the NFPA and then get into serious legal trouble (civil and govt) because they didn't tick off the other myriad of things that go into something like a static fire test. And pray nobody would get hurt because some detail was overlooked.

Like you said yourself, there's a lot more to consider than simply strap it down to a test plate and light the fuse.

 

[shockie]

The answer is that 1.3.3 exempts him from having to follow NFPA 1127.

And he doesn't have to be a member of the NAR/TRA or have an L1,2,3 to fly HPR.

EDIT. Because he is exempt from 1127, 5.1 in 1127 doesn't apply.

And he can get his own Personal FAA waiver.

Now wheather or not AT/Cesorini or Loki will sell him any HPR motors is another question.

 

[user 30299]

Curious how someone new to all this (HPR), with "maybe" little to no background in all this,
is able to surgically select one very particular section in NFPA 1127.

 

[FredA]

Curious how someone new to all this (HPR), with "maybe" little to no background in all this,
is able to surgically select one very particular section in NFPA 1127.

Sounds like logical due diligence to learn about impediments to your biz plan in advance.

 

[user 30299]

Sounds like logical due diligence to learn about impediments to your biz plan in advance.

The logical due diligence doesn't appear in the individual's opening statements regarding the more obvious
conditions (avenues) for a business plan tied to HPR motors - as pointed out by experienced rocketry people.

But then business plans can be a path to success or a path to failure, even if well vetted.

 

[FredA]

OK - maybe less the logical path but more exploring all identified paths kind of due diligence.

 

[cbrarick]

but we miss the obvious question....

if he wants to do something with avionics, why in Gods Green Earth would a static burn be useful? Unless you plan on exposing the avionics to the flame front...but I'm willing to bet my mindsim is correct in saying the electronics will burn, the solder will melt........

because a static burn will give you no actionable data for avionics. He'd be better served with a sling shot....

 

[Steve Shannon]

but we miss the obvious question....

if he wants to do something with avionics, why in Gods Green Earth would a static burn be useful? Unless you plan on exposing the avionics to the flame front...but I'm willing to bet my mindsim is correct in saying the electronics will burn, the solder will melt........

because a static burn will give you no actionable data for avionics. He'd be better served with a sling shot....

You’re absolutely correct about acceleration or altitude data. I have no idea what data his avionics acquire, but over the years I’ve seen several ambitious people try to put together avionics that collect motor pressure and case temperature. I would want to static test those data acquisition functions before flight.

 

[mtnmanak]

We don't want or need what the big guys use.

Speak for yourself, Rick! I am already up to a 3XL in shirt size. I keep losing weight, but then I find more of it...