Estes V-2 Mods for use with F engines

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yes it really wasn't that cold in my garage at all. was probably more so the incompatibility or even the glassine as you mentioned. i was told by some that the glassine actually helps create a smoother bond, so thought it would be good to keep. anyway irregardless, i'm going to scuff it up with some 320/400 sandpaper before even priming it now. and i'm going to return that "crafts" white primer for a Krylon, if i can find it somewhere. my hobby shop sells an "all purpose" white Krylon primer for $5.99 - too much!! maybe it's the Krylon label that does it, but i guess if i have the Krylon Camo system (3 colors/cans) then i might as well keep it consistent. i'll look at a local Home Depot to see if they stock it cheaper.

could you tell me what clear coat you use over your rocket after you finish painting and apply the decals? is it a matte/gloss Krylon spray or what? is it used normally like any paint coat, i.e. just wait several hours before applying one or two coats?

thanks Vince
 
Which clear coat depends on (1) the type of finish you want (gloss, semi-gloss, flat) and (2) the brand/type of paint you're using. Follow the paint/clear coat directions, and always test for compatibility, again.... 75% of all my finish foul-ups have happened during the clear-coat phase.

You don't really always *need* a clear-coat - but if you want an extra protective coat, you probably want to stick with flat (I assume the camo paints you're using are flat).

Going back to the primer issue, I think you can find a much better price at another store - I don't recall paying more than $4 a can for Krylon at Wal-Mart. Just something to keep in mind for the next project.:D Remember, Krylon+Plastic=good, Rustoleum+Plastic=bad. But both are good primers, the Rustoleum being a little thicker and better for filling spirals.
 
thanks vince for all your posts. i ended up buying and keeping that Krylon white primer, "all purpose" that is made for paper products, wood, plastic, etc. and is also sandable. i looked at Home Depot, Lowe's and even Target, but none had Krylon primers - i'll definitely look at Walmart next time. hopefully the white primer can i bought now will last for the V-2 and the HJ kits.

so since i am using the Krylon camo color scheme (yes, flat/dull paints) i might as well keep it consistent, though i'm still doing tests to be sure. 2 coats of the primer and then 2 coats of the first light khaki color, with several hours between each coat. i'm not sanding anything as it's not needed, just the BT as you suggested using #400 wet-dry sandpaper before i prime.

i'm not going to worry about the clear coat just yet since i want to get through painting the entire rocket first. will definitely do tests before i use anything though. and yes, will use a matte/dull clear coat spray by Krylon as well.

oh and yes, i have heard Rustoleum paints are much thicker and hence unnecessary for model rocketry. ppl say they use Rustoleum for outdoor use such as for coating metal and such.

thanks again!
 
Originally posted by RocketSmokEater
oh and yes, i have heard Rustoleum paints are much thicker and hence unnecessary for model rocketry. ppl say they use Rustoleum for outdoor use such as for coating metal and such.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say they're unnecessary, they're really no thicker than Krylon. But Rustoleum gloss enamel gives a superior gloss, almost show-car like, straight from the can, with a smoother finish (less "orange peel") than Krylon gloss. I prefer Krylon for scale models, but when I have something that I want a real "pizazz" finish on, I reach for the Rustoleum. Testor's enamels are also excellent and compatible with just about anything (they're intended primarily for plastic, after all). But, Testor's enamels are very expensive, come in small cans, and a bit prone to runs, too.
 
greetings. just a quick question about final weights. i don't have RockSim but someone is helping me gauge some details using the program with my V2. my final weight (no weight for balancing yet), with an F21-4W installed, a 36" nylon chute, kevlar protector, and 12' of tub. nylon weighs a total of 26.3oz. the F21 alone is 2.3oz. max lift-off weight of an F21 is "recommended" 20oz., and with the inherent instability of the V2 as is, i'm concerned about this.

can someone tell me if "max lift-off weight" INCLUDES the motor weight installed in the MMT? i would imagine yes. even if it doesn't, the rocket would still be about 24oz - a bit heavy i'd say.

suggestions please...?
 
Yes the max lift off weight does include the motor. I'm not very familiar with what 24mm engines are available but it seems very likely you need a more powerfull motor. If it were me I would unwind the engine tube and enlarge the centering ring holes for a 29mm tube, especially since you'll probably need a fair amount of nose weight in a V2. Good luck.
 
ok so yea, my V2, fully loaded with F21-4W and full recovery weighs in at about 26.3oz. there is no nose weight although the rocket balances just fine at the 4" 1-calibar point ahead of the CP.
F21's recommended max lift off weight is 20oz. i'm way over. according to a RockSim file stymye helped me with, i'd need an 8' launch rod = i don't think so.

in order to reduce overall weight, the only place i could go is the chute compartment: reduce 36" chute to 30" perhaps, 12' SC to 8', get rid of a small eye bolt in NC...? but then i'd have to still add some nose weight to bring the CG back, which brings me back to increasing overall weight. seems i'm a bit stuck.

2 QUESTIONS: what can one do at this point? higher impulse 24mm motor perhaps, if any exist? i don't want to be changing drastically, as zippy suggested to a 29mm.
2ndly, is it normal for a 36" rip-stop nylon chute with nylon shrould lines and swivel to weight approx. 4oz.?

help!! would really appreciate some responses here.
>RSE
 
If and when Aerotech produces their non-standard motors again, the 24mm F101 would work. It may require even more nose weight though as it is a heavy sucker. 8-( Also, they are difficult to find I think.

How about an E-30? Sorry, I know the equation but my brain is a bit cloudy right now. They too are hard to come by.

Good luck and keep us posted on your solution.

Len Bryan
 
Originally posted by RocketSmokEater
...
... is it normal for a 36" rip-stop nylon chute with nylon shrould lines and swivel to weight approx. 4oz.?

help!! would really appreciate some responses here.
>RSE
Click to expand...
I can tell you my 40" ripstop chute with 16 shroud lines weighs in at 1.4 oz.
My V2 weighs in at 25.23 oz (w/motor) and flew great on an F20-4 (29mm), which is similar to an F21 in average/peak thrust. The key issue on that flight was little to no wind. I don't want to tell you to fly it the way it is but, on a windless day, I'd probably go for it. I used a 5' (60") 1/4" rod.
 
thanks Len, but another restriction now is that i have the motor thrust ring glued in place at the standard E-size (3.75") mark in the MMT, along with my 2 engine hooks. so i guess i revise what i said: a higher impulse, stronger 24mm X "96mm" engine is what i would need.
i had a shred of hope when i saw this new engine that was recently released by Ellis Mountain - a 24mm G37 - but unfortunately it's a WHOLE 7 INCHES LONG, hence unusable in this case!!! (someone correct me if i saw or misunderstood that b/c it won't fit in the V2)
https://www.geocities.com/ellismountain/motors.html


Stones-
i'm starting to think the 36" chute i have now is way too thick nylon, hence why with the swivel and shroud lines it weights 4oz.!
plus the 12' of tub. nylon is 3oz. as well!
here is the one i bought - scroll down 1/3 of the page:
https://giantleaprocketry.com/products_recovery.asp
i remember you telling me, but tell me again where u got yours, Top Flight Recovery? i might pick one up myself since it's so much lighter. only prob once again is that if i take off weight from an already balanced rocket, i'm just going to balance it again by addin more weight, right?
 
Originally posted by RocketSmokEater
...
i remember you telling me, but tell me again where u got yours, Top Flight Recovery? i might pick one up myself since it's so much lighter. only prob once again is that if i take off weight from an already balanced rocket, i'm just going to balance it again by addin more weight, right?
Click to expand...
The chute is scratchbuilt from ripstop I picked up in a clearance bin at Wallyworld. The shroud lines are a good grade of nylon kite string from Hobbytown.
As far as adding weight, what you decrease in chute and tubular nylon (I used 10' of 3/8" elastic) will equate to a smaller amount of weight added to the NC, if said weight is put in the very end(point) of the NC.
 
RSE,

I'll respond here vs. in PM, since I've been following the thread here too. I have been trying to find Rocksim data for the F21 to no avail, but when I 'fly' your V-2 in Rocksim as is (all 26 ounces) with an E15-4 and an F24-4, the delay 4 sec. is more than enough.

So, I think you'll be o.k., but use a 4+ foot launch rod just to be safe.
 
hey vjp-

thanks for writing. yea i learned the lower the delay, the more weight a given motor can handle. so you say in RockSim all 26oz. flies the V2 straight and fine eh? being new at this, i keep getting mixed responses about her weight and not sure which way to correct this.worried she may not get enough speed at her weight using a 5ft. rod and power prang. i have a need to understand all the physics and then just fix it to KNOW she is ready to go! ;-)

now i'm even starting to wonder if the 36" chute i have won't keep the V2 from plunging into the ground, especially since it has a spill hole AND especially @ 26oz (well 24 after propellant burnout). i've also got various readings on where the CP should be on this kit, which from my education shouldn't change since it's based on stock design, form, shape, etc.

left confused....
>RSE
 
VJP
I got the F21 file from EMRR
btw....pull up your sim again and look at the launch details
one of the first things I always check is the distance for mininum launch speed
RSE...the 20 oz max lift off weight is from the aerotech site .I hope that may a little conservative
although the sim predicts 500'+ altitude( under ideal conditions)
the main thing that sticks out from the sim is the need for a 8'+ launch rod to reach 30 mph... in other words,,If she does get going ,it may not be straight up

add a little breeze and your not going to have a very large margin for success....It's hard to go strictly by rocksim tho..
so I would try and lighten her up a bit If you can

like you,I am interested in seeing what others come up with as well..and this is definately the best place to find answers
 
I've built and rebuilt a boatload of these rockets over the last two years. For any motor up to any F no mods are required except to leave out that **** engine hook. The basic tape wrap around the last 1/2 inch of engine does the trick. I also let the MMT extend out from the base of the rocket 3/4 inch so that I could wrap a band of tape around the motor and the MMT to hold it in during ejection. On the most recent model, I added launch rail buttons in place of the lug. I think this model really likes the added stability of a rail launch. It seems as though I get straighter lift-offs with less weather cocking. The biggest motor I've used is a G55. No additional weight was required. Geez, talk about a kick butt flight!
 
>V2: "So, how do I look folks? I feel good, i'm definitely strong, even if slightly heavier when fully loaded and @ approx. 24oz., so hopefully a long rod and minimal wind will allow me to see a bit of the earth from the sky above. When, you ask? Sunday is the day, granted favorable weather conditions that will permit me to soar. Everyone, please, let's stay away from thoughts that surround the word 'scale', ok, for me, please? I'm a bit new and sensitive. Oh, by the way, i know I look very sheen b/c in fact I do have a light dull coat for my paint's protection, so don't make fun of me.
Hopefully you'll see me in an upcoming video..."

Alright folks, sorry, she wanted to say a few words. Without further a due, I present her to you. We've both been itching to share her with the community but i've needed some digital equipment to do so. Thanks to everyone for helping me learn and put her together. Hopefully her new, slightly lighter overall weight, a Top Flight thin mil 45" chute, a kevlar chute protector, and 12' of tub. nylon will keep her safe and secure!

>RSE
 
>internal recovery layout:

- 45" thin mil Top Flight Recovery standard chute
- 12' GLR 9/16" tubular nylon anchored to MMT-secured kevlar
- 6x6" round kevlar chute protector (will add bit of wadding too)
- 1/8" quick link to chute swivel
- 1/4" eyebolt epoxied to NC shoulder for shock cord

---
all tub. nylon knots tied tight & reinforced with thin CyA.
a quarter is placed in the middle for size comparion/reference
total weight approximately 24oz. with F21-4W installed
 
ok, after incessant persistence, i allowed her to be presented in this angle for a fuller standing view, but since "they "were fighting, i decided to present them together.

>RSE
 
Looks great!! I cannot wait to see flight pics!!

BTW: F21s are available at A2Z hobbies again, I just received 3 packs from them...

Fred
 
STONES: yes, 1st flight motor. i haven't flown her yet, nor any AT motors at all!

FRED: i already have 4 F21s from Red Arrow when i bought them several months ago. hopefully all of them will come to use!! ;-)

>RSE
 
Originally posted by RocketSmokEater
STONES: yes, 1st flight motor. i haven't flown her yet, nor any AT motors at all!
...
Click to expand...
Hehe...
I meant what motor were you using for the 1st flight. Looks like an F21? Good choice.
 
RSE,

Good job! Nice to finally see the finished project. What did you finally do about buying/building a launch system?

p.s. since you mentioned this would be your first ever AT motor, remember - the ignitor snakes WAY up into motor's grain slot, not just into the nozzle, like Estes BP motors. You probably already know this but I'll mention it anyway just to be safe - it's probably the most common "1st-timer" error with composite motors.
 
hey there everyone!

well, as in the words of Doug Pratt himself (Pratt Hobbies owner) today at the Middletown launch - mind you, my first club launch *and* my first launch with AT motors - "he exits the field flushed with success." Indeed was the case, feeling successful and satisfied with the thrill of seeing this V2 finally fly. here is a short flight log of both flights:

__Start Log+

>NARHAMS Club in Middletown, MD - June 6th @ 3pm
Conditions: mid 70's, mostly cloudy w/occassional "sun peeks"
<5 mph winds, though completely still @ launch

2 Flights - modified Estes V2, weight: approx. 24oz. with full
recovery & F21-4W installed using Copperhead igniter. Flight
height estimated to approx. 600-650ft (no altimeter, sorry).

Successful launches both times off of a custom-made launch
pad that Doug Pratt let me burrow last minute, perfect 6' 1/4"
rod, and again with no wind.

Perfectly straight flights with the 2nd leading a very small arc
into the wind over a barge of trees, though after successful
deployment of 45" Top Flight chute, it drifted toward safety.

Descent rate was just right (can't say exactly, but slow enough
not to worry about plastic fins cracking or breaking in any way.
Caught it easily both times anyway!)

Landing, both times, approximately 300 ft. away from pad on
soft long grass (with lots of groundhog holes everywhere! ;-))

Personal Comment: Wow, this AT motor really hurt my ears at
first. I was standing about 25ft away or so and i had to quickly
cover them and move further back! Very loud, especially the echo
into the residentail area more than 1/2 mile away!

__End Log+

>RSE
 
Congrats RSE!
Welcome to the world of APCP. It gets a little harder to just fly BP after that, doesn't it? ;)
 
and here following are two videos for your viewing pleasure. both videos are compressed w/the Divx file format with ".avi" file extensions. i will atempt to attach them now, though being there is a file size limit i think i will need to provide a link to an external site, which i believe is what everyone does.

note on the video: my friend was narrating and shooting with the digi cam, and unfortunately given the cloudy and bright weather, the rocket is lost in the whiteness of the clouds so that is why you will the video abruptly ends. the 2nd video is what resumes upon the rocket descending. sorry bout that - i too wanted to see the chute deply, but no zoom capabilities on this digi cam! next time, i'm going to try to get some Hollywood-style footage for all!

enjoy!
>RSE

VIDEOS:
www.christospalios.com/V2/V2_Launch_2.avi

www.christospalios.com/V2/Catching_V2Rocket.avi
 
but...the one and only problem was the hole/slit in the kevlar chute protector after the 1st flight. yes, it protected everything above it, including the 12' of tubular nylon SC, the chute and its shroud lines, but after only 2 flights a hole appeared = not good!
i wrote to Giant Leap and we shall see what they will say!

and last but not least, some special thanks to STONES, STYMYE and VJP for all the advice and responses to my very analytical and overly-concerned questions, really! thanks for your patience gentlemen! :D you were right STONES, just launch her in no wind and hope for the best. that i did, and with no added nose weight!

>RSE
 

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