Estes Sonic igniters

[mn-rocketry]

A local hobby store just got in the new Estes "Pro Series II" igniters for the (relabeled Aerotech) E, F, and G single-use motors. They look interesting, and the price is very appealing, so I thought that I'd pass along some details.

Estes Pro Series II "Sonic" Igniters
#2305, $5.99
4 per package

Specs on package:
Maximum no fire current: 1.25A
Minimum all-fire current: 3.80A
Igniter resistance including lead wires: 1.6 ohms

My observations:
Length not specified, but looks to be about 9" to 10"
Within the bag, each igniter is folded and inserted inside a 1/8" launch lug that's 5" long. ("free" launch lugs!)
Haven't opened a package - can't see the head style or amount of pyrogen.
Wire color is orange. Appears to be a much lighter wire gauge than the Aerotech Firstfire Jr. igniters.

So, these look like they're meant to be fired on 6 volts (V = IR = 3.8*1.6 = 6.08 volts). I had been expecting that since Estes hadn't announced a new launch controller, and the new 2012 Estes catalog recommends the use of their existing "E Launch Controller" (page 7). It has a 30 foot cord - just barely enough to meet the safety code minimum distance for E-G motors.

I should have bought a package of these to try them out - will have to do that soon.

 

[Adrian A]

A local hobby store just got in the new Estes "Pro Series II" igniters for the (relabeled Aerotech) E, F, and G single-use motors. They look interesting, and the price is very appealing, so I thought that I'd pass along some details.

Estes Pro Series II "Sonic" Igniters
#2305, $5.99
4 per package

Specs on package:
Maximum no fire current: 1.25A
Minimum all-fire current: 3.80A
Igniter resistance including lead wires: 1.6 ohms

My observations:
Length not specified, but looks to be about 9" to 10"
Within the bag, each igniter is folded and inserted inside a 1/8" launch lug that's 5" long. ("free" launch lugs!)
Haven't opened a package - can't see the head style or amount of pyrogen.
Wire color is orange. Appears to be a much lighter wire gauge than the Aerotech Firstfire Jr. igniters.

So, these look like they're meant to be fired on 6 volts (V = IR = 3.8*1.6 = 6.08 volts). I had been expecting that since Estes hadn't announced a new launch controller, and the new 2012 Estes catalog recommends the use of their existing "E Launch Controller" (page 7). It has a 30 foot cord - just barely enough to meet the safety code minimum distance for E-G motors.

I should have bought a package of these to try them out - will have to do that soon.

Thanks for the info. Glad to see they are publishing the all-fire and no-fire currents, along with the resistance.

6 Volts is what has to be across the ignitor for the minimum firing current, but don't forget about the internal resistance of the battery. A 9V battery wouldn't cut it, because it has about 2 Ohms internal resistance, which would make a total of 3.6 Ohms in the circuit. A 9V battery could only put about 3 Amps into that circuit.

2 lipo cells in series could probably do it though. At 8V open-circuit voltage, there could be up to 2.1 Ohms in series and still put out 3.8 Amps. If the ignitor has 1.6, that leaves 0.5 Ohms for the battery, which you could get with a couple of 300 mAhr Lipo cells in series.

One other comparison is interesting. The total power that a Quest Q2G2 ignitor needs is about 0.3A^2 * 2.5 Ohms = 0.23 Watts. These ignitors need 23 Watts to fire, fully 10 times the power of a Quest Q2G2.

 

[New Ocean]

Where exactly does the cost come from when igniters (small wires, dipped) sell for $1.50 each? I also see them on Amazon, 4x for $4.19 + $3.49 shipping.

 

[Wingarcher]

One other comparison is interesting. The total power that a Quest Q2G2 ignitor needs is about 0.3A^2 * 2.5 Ohms = 0.23 Watts. These ignitors need 23 Watts to fire, fully 10 times the power of a Quest Q2G2.

This have to do with the current required to run the Estes launch controller's continuity check with its lightbulb? Or have they updated that controller since I was 12 and flying rockets in the backyard?

N

 

[GrossApproximator]

One other comparison is interesting. The total power that a Quest Q2G2 ignitor needs is about 0.3A^2 * 2.5 Ohms = 0.23 Watts. These ignitors need 23 Watts to fire, fully 10 times the power of a Quest Q2G2.

Ummm, I think you mean 100 times the power. Yikes that's a lot of juice.

 

[blackjack2564]

Where exactly does the cost come from when igniters (small wires, dipped) sell for $1.50 each? I also see them on Amazon, 4x for $4.19 + $3.49 shipping.

For the most part: low volume comparatively speaking, 10's of thousand sold, not hundreds of thousands, or millions. This is for Estes or Quest type, which are machine made . [ I believe]

Dipped are handmade due to low volume & very time consuming [ever made them yourself?] Let alone for sale. BIG difference. [ AT firstfire, quickburst, sonic, CTI[include e-match] etc.

Cutting & measuring wire,
stripping it,
soldering bridge wire,
weighing chems
screening and mixing pyrogen.
Dipping and drying racks
Testing batches
Inspecting finished product & quality control.
Folding & bagging
Printing & labeling


Just having room & storing all of the above for mass production.

 

[Adrian A]

Ummm, I think you mean 100 times the power. Yikes that's a lot of juice.

Oops. Darn decimal place. :gavel:

 

[bill2654]

Will they work in place of AT Copperhead ignitors?

 

[GDJ]

6 Volts is what has to be across the ignitor for the minimum firing current, but don't forget about the internal resistance of the battery. A 9V battery wouldn't cut it, because it has about 2 Ohms internal resistance, which would make a total of 3.6 Ohms in the circuit. A 9V battery could only put about 3 Amps into that circuit.

2 lipo cells in series could probably do it though. At 8V open-circuit voltage, there could be up to 2.1 Ohms in series and still put out 3.8 Amps. If the ignitor has 1.6, that leaves 0.5 Ohms for the battery, which you could get with a couple of 300 mAhr Lipo cells in series.

One other comparison is interesting. The total power that a Quest Q2G2 ignitor needs is about 0.3A^2 * 2.5 Ohms = 0.23 Watts. These ignitors need 23 Watts to fire, fully 10 times the power of a Quest Q2G2.

Or just do what I do: 1100 CCA car battery. With the relays I have I can pump 80 AMPS per igniter (4 relays for 4 igniters)

Most igniters light instantly. Copperheads light off just like the solar igniters.

 

[Adrian A]

Or just do what I do: 1100 CCA car battery. With the relays I have I can pump 80 AMPS per igniter (4 relays for 4 igniters)

Most igniters light instantly. Copperheads light off just like the solar igniters.

I was thinking of airstarts.

 

[GDJ]

I was thinking of airstarts.

Ahh.....yeah a car battery would be an issue. Would need about five M-class engines.......and the recovery would be hazardous.......would be a new definition of Acid Rain.

 

[[POW]Eagle159]

Ahh.....yeah a car battery would be an issue. Would need about five M-class engines.......and the recovery would be hazardous.......would be a new definition of Acid Rain.

Hopefully no CATOS!!!! :y: :y: :y:

 

[jqavins]

I was thinking of airstarts.

For air starts there's not enough information here. It's all well and good to give the all/no-fire currents and resistance, and I second the kudos to Estes for doing so, but for designing an air start system one also needs the ignition time at a given current. It's not just the power, it's the energy. It's not too hard to put 6V, 12V, or even 50V on a capacitor then dump the cap through an igniter; you can easily get plenty of power, but if it only lasts a few microseconds there won't be enough energy for ignition. So thanks, Estes, for the information but... More, please. :2:

 

[scsager]

Will they work in place of AT Copperhead ignitors?

I purchased the Sonic Ignitors specifically to use in place of Copperheads. The Estes motors that these were designed to work with are essentially re-branded AT motors.

I have not tried them yet, but feel confident they can be used to replace the igniter for any motor that normally comes with a Copperhead.

 

[bill2654]

Still waiting foor the ones I ordered.

 

[accooper]

I sure would like to see a good picture of one.

Andrew

 

[qquake2k]

I sure would like to see a good picture of one.

Andrew

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=30817

 

[fyrwrxz]

Ahh.....yeah a car battery would be an issue. Would need about five M-class engines.......and the recovery would be hazardous.......would be a new definition of Acid Rain.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
now THAT was funny!
Don't laff-some chap asked me once about lofting a motorcyle battery for his airstarts. After the cramps subsided and I could breath again-we did some simple math. Haven't seen him since-hope he took up stamp collecting.

 

[GDJ]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
now THAT was funny!
Don't laff-some chap asked me once about lofting a motorcyle battery for his airstarts. After the cramps subsided and I could breath again-we did some simple math. Haven't seen him since-hope he took up stamp collecting.

*facepalm moment*:eyeroll:

 

[Rex R]

some people have used bowling balls(16lb) as a payload...
rex

 

[eggplant]

some people have used bowling balls(16lb) as a payload...
rex

And you certainly don't need 5 M's to lift one.

 

[KenRico]

Now seeing this as a HAZMAT required at different outlets ??!?

Any updated information ?

Kenny

 

[qquake2k]

Now seeing this as a HAZMAT required at different outlets ??!?

Any updated information ?

Kenny

Where are you seeing them listed as HAZMAT?

 

[KenRico]

ACS & Hobbylinc

Not finding on Estes webstore to check if they are $35 there . . .

 

[qquake2k]

ACS & Hobbylinc

Not finding on Estes webstore to check if they are $35 there . . .

I don't know about ACS, but I know when Hobbylinc says something is hazmat, that just means it has to ship USPS ground. They don't charge an extra hazmat fee.

 

[arconhi]

This have to do with the current required to run the Estes launch controller's continuity check with its lightbulb? Or have they updated that controller since I was 12 and flying rockets in the backyard?

N

Years ago doing many cluster flights up to six C engines ,We had our huge High School Athletic field at the end of our property. We would use a 100 foot exstension cord plugged in the wall outlet of our house to ignite the solar ignitors. We wired a Toggle switch and a green panel light mounted in a small wooden box we made to the cord and had the about 25 feet of launch wires with the alligator clips going to the launch pad.

 

[ATJOE1972]

Years ago doing many cluster flights up to six C engines ,We had our huge High School Athletic field at the end of our property. We would use a 100 foot exstension cord plugged in the wall outlet of our house to ignite the solar ignitors. We wired a Toggle switch and a green panel light mounted in a small wooden box we made to the cord and had the about 25 feet of launch wires with the alligator clips going to the launch pad.

LOL, no misfires due to weak batteries My Fifth Grade teacher had a similar set up when we would launch rockets after school. He hooked it up to the 12 volt battery in his truck. Flawless ignitions every time. Your solution to cluster flights was quite ingenious. A preview to your DCC skills

 

[arconhi]

LOL, no misfires due to weak batteries My Fifth Grade teacher had a similar set up when we would launch rockets after school. He hooked it up to the 12 volt battery in his truck. Flawless ignitions every time. Your solution to cluster flights was quite ingenious. A preview to your DCC skills

All that 120 voltage you couldn't go wrong. When the ignition switch was thrown , instant split second ignition. However being a teenager back then we had to improvise because of items we couldn't get an afford. Mail order took forever. When you got the package you were excited. The Clustering was figured out by our PHD neighbor building a motor mount for 6 engines and using 12 alligator clips. It worked. And of course like you said, using a 12 volt car battery is the best way. We may have a launch coming up next weekend at a nice big farm field. Got permission from a local Farmer who Harvests many fields. Will use the car battery for sure. I hope my old Econjet F21 motors are still good. Will let you know and take videos.

 

[RobertH3]

I played with Estes Sonics with some 29mm APCP motors, Aerotech and rebranded Estes. 2 fails, one success. I tried painting the tip with nail polish and you get a better quick flame but I am not pleased with them. Now, if you were to dip them it might be economical and reliable to use them. Since I still have some may try them again but meh.

Cheers / Robert