Estes Sonic Igniters in Loki?

[LithosphereRocketry]

Is there any reason this wouldn't work? I'm thinking of getting a small Loki case or two and the only thing I haven't decided on is igniters.

By measuring one I have lying around the igniter is about 10" long, so seems like it would be close to long enough for the 38/480.

If not, does anyone have any (relatively inexpensive) suggestions for igniters for small Loki motors?

 

[BDB]

I lit a Loki I405 with a sonic igniter once but I wouldn’t recommend it. The igniter isn’t really long enough for that motor. It may work for the Loki 38-120 motors, but there are probably better options. The issue with those motors is that you need a small enough diameter to fit through the nozzle. I buy igniters for them from Chris’ Rocket Supplies.


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[ttabbal]

Estes igniters aren't strong enough to start APCP. I use some homemade bridgewire igniters that are similar to Quickburst. Another option is Aerotech igniters, your club launch probably has a vendor that can get them for you. CTI won't work as they use ematches with a starter pellet in the grain.

There was a thread recently about using fabric glue and black powder to make some that looked pretty simple as well. I believe it was an article in the NAR magazine.

 

[Kallahan11]

Estes igniters aren't strong enough to start APCP. I use some homemade bridgewire igniters that are similar to Quickburst. Another option is Aerotech igniters, your club launch probably has a vendor that can get them for you. CTI won't work as they use ematches with a starter pellet in the grain.

There was a thread recently about using fabric glue and black powder to make some that looked pretty simple as well. I believe it was an article in the NAR magazine.

The sonic igniters were for the PSII APCP motors Estes had a couple of years back, they will light APCP. So long as you can get the igniter all the way into the motor it may work, however I believe there are better choices.

 

[LithosphereRocketry]

I lit a Loki I405 with a sonic igniter once but I wouldn’t recommend it. The igniter isn’t really long enough for that motor. It may work for the Loki 38-120 motors, but there are probably better options. The issue with those motors is that you need a small enough diameter to fit through the nozzle. I buy igniters for them from Chris’ Rocket Supplies.


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OK, good to know- would soldering on extension wires help for I motors? Or would that just clog up the nozzle? I think the wires will reach to the throat, so I wouldn't think so- I'd like to hear your experience though.

I'll mostly fly G's and maybe H's anyway so sounds like the sonics should work OK for that? I flew one in an old AT G80 that didn't even notice the copperhead, it worked fine.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Wildman has the ability to ship Aerotech igniters with pyrogen on them in four pack for $12.99, I get one of those with every reload I buy. Or you can bulk buy Chinese ematches somewhere on this forum and glob your own pyrogen on them. The aerotech igniters firstfire or whatever not the junior model has very long wire length exceeding very well several feet beyond 38/480 casing length with about 2" of pyrogen.

The igniter on my L-1 flight had to touch the top fuel grain. So you need a very long wire, and the RSO emphasizes dearly that the wire must be near perfectly straight. Lit I300T, I1299N with those aerotech FirstWires, it would likely light a loki load. Supposedly you can enhance the ignition with pyrodex pellets split lengthwise into four sections at slight epoxied to fuel grain if needed, but I've used the aerotech igniters stock.

 

[DavidMcCann]

If you get with some friends.... order a kit from rocketflite, and make a 2-300 ignitors, it's a pretty reasonable price. The dip is $39, then the wires are $11 to $15 a dozen. It sounds like a lot.... until you make a couple hundred ignitors.... for $250ish, instead of $800

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Okay the Aerotech ones are about a yard long with 1 and 5/8" pyrogen at tip if you need to copy it.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Okay. So the ML-24 kit is for G-I motors? And you get a pyrogen kit separately?

 

[Andrew_ASC]

G-I.
https://www.rocketflite.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=51

Pyrogen.
https://www.rocketflite.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=54

 

[Andrew_ASC]

How many igniters do you roughly do with 40 grams? David?

 

[DavidMcCann]

How many igniters do you roughly do with 40 grams? David?

I have roughly 60 on the table there, half I folded over the wire at the end to make a bigger dipped tip.

I think I used 1/3 of the pyrogen. You need to be careful if you store leftovers. I typically make a batch and burn off the leftover.

 

[rstaff3]

If you get with some friends.... order a kit from rocketflite, and make a 2-300 ignitors, it's a pretty reasonable price. The dip is $39, then the wires are $11 to $15 a dozen. It sounds like a lot.... until you make a couple hundred ignitors.... for $250ish, instead of $800

So what the heck are you doing with my igniter box?

I use those too...and have the same box.

 

[ksaves2]

One. You can buy AT igniters for a comparable size motor.

Two. You can roll your own with the "kits" that are out there.

Three. You can read up on the subject, purchase the fix'ins and experiment from scratch

Me, I do number three and have fun doing it. Even do a bimodal standard dip with MTV outer layer.

Anyone who does ematch based motor "liters" best be certain that the launch system used is "ematch safe" otherwise they might get a surprise if they push the continuity button. :shock: Kurt

 

[LithosphereRocketry]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

I'm not interested in "home brew" igniters at this point, so my other options are the CSRocketry small igniters or AT FirstFires, or maybe something else. I'd lean toward the CSRocketry option as long as they're on par in terms of reliability- they're marginally less expensive.

Any experience on those vs. AT?

 

[ksaves2]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

I'm not interested in "home brew" igniters at this point, so my other options are the CSRocketry small igniters or AT FirstFires, or maybe something else. I'd lean toward the CSRocketry option as long as they're on par in terms of reliability- they're marginally less expensive.

Any experience on those vs. AT?

Yeah, they work great with AT motors. I've grabbed one to light Loki's before of comparable size. I many times use
my "homemades" to light the AT motors and acquire a collection of AT liters and have them lying around. Kurt

 

[Bat-mite]

I use these. Excellent performance and ship no HAZMAT. https://www.frankumperformance.com/starters-and-initiators

 

[Handeman]

I make igniter for less than 10 cents each. I use the left over wire from ematches and igniter I can pick up at the launches. A spool of 30 ga nichrome and a home made mix of thing I get at Wal-Mart and the sporting goods store. It's probably more work then buying the pyrogen mix, but it's worked with everything from AT 24-40 E motors to M motors. It's easy to make the igniters for H and bigger motors. When you start trying to make small igniter for little motors, you need to start using the 28 ga wire wrap wire and wrapping the nichrome bridge becomes more of an issue. It can be done, but it's more difficult and time consuming.

 

[mrwalsh85]

For what it's worth, I flew a G110T last weekend with a sonic igniter. She went off without an issue. If your load has a core that is significantly larger than the nozzle, I'd suggest maybe sliding the igniter in, determine how much is actually inside of the motor, then remove it, give the igniter a slight kink in the wire a little more than halfway into the motor, then carefully slide it in. I hardly ever have igniter problems doing this - this ensures that your pyrogen is in full contact with the grain where you need the energy to be directed.

 

[Cl(VII)]

I have some ignitors I got from Crazy Jim. I think you could light concrete with those things. Send him a PM, and see if he has some available. Great performance, and a good price as I recall.

 

[DavidMcCann]

I have some ignitors I got from Crazy Jim. I think you could light concrete with those things. Send him a PM, and see if he has some available. Great performance, and a good price as I recall.

mine failed to light concrete.
[video]https://youtu.be/WUC-9pEtyVw[/video]

wouldn't be my first choice for motors. I use them for DD. standard Chinese ebay ematches.

 

[blackjack2564]

He's talking about my motor starters...not ejection.

Boron fortified

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...d-price-increase-quantity&p=663124#post663124

 

[Cl(VII)]

He's talking about my motor starters...not ejection.

Boron fortified

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...d-price-increase-quantity&p=663124#post663124

Yep, those are the good ones.

 

[AlfaBrewer]

Only problem I've had with a Crazy Jim igniter was an oooooooold Loki white. 2002 vintage flown a couple of months ago. Got a hard chuff on the first igniter. Second try with a CJ special had it going like a scalded cat.

 

[sharkbait]

Dave at QuickBurst makes very good starters
The Twiggy, Slim Gem, Fat Boy, & Super Fat Boy

 

[manixFan]

I use these. Excellent performance and ship no HAZMAT. https://www.frankumperformance.com/starters-and-initiators

The pricing is a bit concerning until you realize he sells them in packages of 10. They are great ignitors.

I would stay away from any homemade ignitor that uses BP. The federal regs are quite clear on it and it's not worth the potential grief if something goes haywire. If NAR did publish an article on how to make ignitors using black powder I consider that extremely irresponsible.


Tony

 

[Viperfixr]

Another endorsement for CJ's motor starters. I've tried a few homebrew type kits and none hold a candle to CJ's starters at any size. Used one of his big ones for my L3, and the 75mm Aerotech M1780NT came up to pressure instantly. While I tried my hand at making them before, his just work so darned well that it's a time saver just to buy his and know they will work.

 

[ksaves2]

Are his ematch, BKNO3 based starters still available? We're talking low current motor starters and not ematches. Kurt

 

[blackjack2564]

Are his ematch, BKNO3 based starters still available? We're talking low current motor starters and not ematches. Kurt

Yes they are...but...
You may be confusing the issue. ematch low current for ejection & are being used successfully for BP motors especially clustering the large C's [24mm] D's & F's [BLACKPOWDER] Not high power motor or low power AP motors.

Motor starters both reg & BKNO3 are for 12v launch systems NOT low current Estes type 6v launch systems. These are for AP motors & are made with soldered 32ga nichrome bridge wire.

 

[ksaves2]

Yes they are...but...
You may be confusing the issue. ematch low current for ejection & are being used successfully for BP motors especially clustering the large C's [24mm] D's & F's [BLACKPOWDER] Not high power motor or low power AP motors.

Motor starters both reg & BKNO3 are for 12v launch systems NOT low current Estes type 6v launch systems. These are for AP motors & are made with soldered 32ga nichrome bridge wire.

Well chute! I thought a BKNO3 low current staging igniter was possible but I can stick to exploring BP based (pellet or otherwise) or low heat of activation thermite which I have some familiarity with (and respect for) Kurt