Estes Saturn V, Quintuple Cluster, Staged

[Joshua Smith]

I imagine someone has posed this idea before, and I know this would be a mess, but maybe a fun mess. I have an extra Estes Saturn V Skylab (main body tube is a bit squished), but the Skylab vs Apollo doesn't much matter here. What I want to do, because I can (try), is modify it to be a cluster of 5 (probably 18mm), gap cluster them to a second stage with another 5 (also probably 18mm), and stage that to 1 motor in the 3rd stage. You know, cuz the Saturn V had 5 F-1s in the first stage, 5 J-2s in the 2nd, and 1 J-2 in the 3rd.

I realize there are stability issues galore, but seems like a fun challenge. I figure cut the main body tube to create the 2nd stage. Gap stage between the lower and upper sets of 5 motors. Use the upper section (the Skylab portion) as the 3rd stage with one motor.

Insane? Unoriginal idea that's been done before?

 

[SecondRow]

It’s definitely been done, but don’t let that stop you from doing something cool. I know I’ve seen that people have built fins that pop out upon separation for the second and third stage to increase stability, but I can’t find the evidence right now. Here’s an Apogee article on pop out fins that might help get you started.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter313.pdf

 

[Joshua Smith]

It’s definitely been done, but don’t let that stop you from doing something cool. I know I’ve seen that people have built fins that pop out upon separation for the second and third stage to increase stability, but I can’t find the evidence right now. Here’s an Apogee article on pop out fins that might help get you started.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter313.pdf

I should have known Apogee had a newsletter covering pop out fins lol.

 

[Blast it Tom!]

Long ago I found someone in Alabama that had done it - I can no longer find that site. It is a dream of mine as well, a "build of a lifetime", and I've "mind-simmed" some pretty outrageous thoughts... On the analytical side, I had been noodling about with the Barrowman stability method as explained in "Topics in Advanced Model Rocketry", but haven't done any modeling or real calculations with it yet for any rocket, much less the mighty Saturn V. As I understand Barrowman, straight body tube sections aren't considered for stability; only nosecones, fins, transitions, and tail cones. But here, the tubes have so much more lateral area than those teensy fins (even with the fairings) and transitions, I wonder about the applicability. I was going to have a go at Barrowman's actual thesis (one for NAR, one for NASA), but since retiring I've been too tied up with too many other things - the old proverb, "how did I have time to work 40 hours a week?" has come to pass. But I suspect as fall rolls on and the adjustment continues I'll have more free time.

The one in Alabama also used transparent pop-out fins for the upper stages, I remember that much.

 

[Bravo52]

Several people have done staged Saturn 1Bs because it is a bit more realistic. All that I've seen use "pop out fins". Jim Filler and Chris Flanigan are two that come to mind. Both were successful. Jim is an incredible modeler and also had an 8 cluster first stage. It's been a while but I think he flew the Sat 1B to a second place at NARAM 50.

You are correct in that there is a stability problem you have to overcome but it can be done. Search the archives...there should be some post about it. The same principles could be applied to the Sat V.

https://narhams.org/zog-43/v42/zog43_v42n02_202003.pdf

 

[Joshua Smith]

Several people have done staged Saturn 1Bs because it is a bit more realistic. All that I've seen use "pop out fins". Jim Filler and Chris Flanigan are two that come to mind. Both were successful. Jim is an incredible modeler and also had an 8 cluster first stage. It's been a while but I think he flew the Sat 1B to a second place at NARAM 50.

You are correct in that there is a stability problem you have to overcome but it can be done. Search the archives...there should be some post about it. The same principles could be applied to the Sat V.

https://narhams.org/zog-43/v42/zog43_v42n02_202003.pdf

Thanks. Yeah the Saturn 1B is ripe for clustering obviously. It would nice to have a slide-over body tube to essentially "convert" a 1B to a Sat V on demand, not unlike switching the upper for a Skylab/Apollo

 

[Blast it Tom!]

Figure the S-IVB, lunar module adapter, and CSM were virtually identical on some missions (at least for the "10 ft. rule"), and yes, the uppers could work for both rockets! I'd figure you'd start this design effort (1st pass, at least) from the top, as it must fly independently as a stable rocket, as must the 2nd and upper together, then finally the full stack (speaking of the Saturn V).

 

[kuririn]

Verna DeArman did a three stage 11 engine Saturn V way back when.
Bad Girl Saturn V Full Stack (vernarockets.com)

 

[SecondRow]

Verna DeArman did a three stage 11 engine Saturn V way back when.
Bad Girl Saturn V Full Stack (vernarockets.com)

Yeah! I was looking all over for that link to pass on to OP. That’s probably the same one Blast it Tom is talking about, too.

 

[Blast it Tom!]

I don't think it is, as the one I saw had the NASA paint and used transparent flip out fins. But that is one VERY good resource, much thanks to @kuririn ! When designing, it's always handy to be able to start from a known working design!

EDIT: After perusing the links, yes, that is the one I saw. Much thanks to @kuririn for finding it again!

 

[Joshua Smith]

Verna DeArman did a three stage 11 engine Saturn V way back when.
Bad Girl Saturn V Full Stack (vernarockets.com)

This is awesome. I also love the term full stack to describe it. "CHeap And Dirty" staging is also hilarious. Thanks so much everyone, esp @kuririn for digging up the link. Now I feel like I HAVE to build it (or similar). I think clear fins are a must at this point, then the question is how much mass does a flip out system cost me.

Anyways, thanks again. I'll be back in a year or so when I've made progress. If there's one thing I've learned about project management, esp MY projects, always at LEAST double the schedule

 

[Blast it Tom!]

Ain't THAT the truth... double, and then add 10%!

 

[Joshua Smith]

Ain't THAT the truth... double, and then add 10%!

And if project involves my own home, use 3x instead of 2x

 

[SecondRow]

Post pics as you progress. We love pics.

 

[JPalmer621]

The Saturn V in the Apogee article is mine and I have done two stages with good success most of the time LOL. I would plan on using 24 mm motors. Here is a picture with 4 C5-3s and one D12 As you can see the flames are considerably different. It had a good boost and seperated well. I am using this two stage and adding the third stage. I have not had a chance to try it yet. I know the author wanted 5 X 5 X 1 on the engine side. That would be cool but I don't know where the fins would go. I also have an extra Saturn V that I plan on making it into a 3 stage kit.

 

[Joshua Smith]

The Saturn V in the Apogee article is mine and I have done two stages with good success most of the time LOL. I would plan on using 24 mm motors. Here is a picture with 4 C5-3s and one D12 As you can see the flames are considerably different. It had a good boost and seperated well. I am using this two stage and adding the third stage. I have not had a chance to try it yet. I know the author wanted 5 X 5 X 1 on the engine side. That would be cool but I don't know where the fins would go. I also have an extra Saturn V that I plan on making it into a 3 stage kit.

Awesome! Yeah, I'd definitely prefer 24mm, even possibly with a core 29mm. I just assumed the additional weight would be a huge burden. However, there IS of course a lot of main body tube volume to work with which provides for a lot of imaginative options in that interstage space.

The first stage honestly seems the worst. You've get lots of aft engine weight and your free space is above that. 2nd stage has aft engine weight, but you have free space aft of the engines. If the 3rd stage never gets too slow, I wonder if it could maintain stability with no added control surfaces, Soviet N-1 style.

 

[JPalmer621]

Somewhere I have a picture of it. At NARCON 2019 there was a speaker on scale modeling and he had a 3 stage Saturn V and the third stage was stable with just using the interstate adapter as drag

 

[Joshua Smith]

Somewhere I have a picture of it. At NARCON 2019 there was a speaker on scale modeling and he had a 3 stage Saturn V and the third stage was stable with just using the interstate adapter as drag

That's awesome! Presumably one also has a decent amount of nose weight, which should just make stage 3 even more stable. Remove the crew and put in some lead weight lol

 

[Blast it Tom!]

Somewhere I have a picture of it. At NARCON 2019 there was a speaker on scale modeling and he had a 3 stage Saturn V and the third stage was stable with just using the interstate adapter as drag

That's what I'm talking about! I figure with all the effort one would put into something like this, there ought to be some way to calculate that you'd have a reasonable shot at stability! I take it, though, that you mean the large tapered transition between the 2nd and third stage. Hey, now, that's not the way that it flew!

<Tom toddles off to google "NARCON 2019"...>

 

[JPalmer621]

Found my pictures. Second and third stage. On the second stage the three out side tubes hold the three parachutes for the first stage. I have tried this technique myself and the parachutes do no burn up (melt). Third stage can pop the chute either at LEM transition or at the capsule depending on how you want to build it.

 

[lakeroadster]

I'm working on a 1/150 Saturn V, 5 cluster 1st and 2nd Stage, an single motor 34d and 4th stage. All BP motors. Link to build thread: Multi Stage Saturn V