Estes Saturn V E engine cluster

[visualtrek]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, but not rocketry. I'm a BAR, and after watching a friends stock Estees Saturn V crash without chute deployment on a D12-3, I wanted to get one & modify it for a
successful launch. His rocket barely hit 80 feet, went horizontal & crashed. I know I'll have to replace the flimsy vacuum-formed parts and add weight to the nose, but i want to cluster
3 Estes E12-4 engines for my Saturn V. Increase fin size, 1/8" plywood motor mounts, I'm going to put it in OpenRocket to see the results I get.

I would like to use store bought engines for the convenience of going to the hobby store and going to launch.

I'm interested in hearing opinions, suggestions, advice.

Thanks!

 

[rstaff3]

Well, E12's have had a checkered history. Make sure the date codes are not listed here https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?139245-E12-0s-blow-up&p=1673834#post1673834

Other than that, just make sure the CP/CG is good.

Oh, yeah, WELCOME to TRF!

 

[visualtrek]

Thank you for that important info.

 

[GregGleason]

3 x E12s will get you an average thrust of about 30 N with a total motor weight of 176 grams.

4 x C6s + 1 x D12 will get you an average thrust of about 30 N with a total motor weight of 142 grams.

Greg

 

[chrisudy]

I upgraded to a 29mm mount - can fly on the Estes 29mm BP motors.

Chris

 

[visualtrek]

Did you use an estes F engine? Did you also move the motor mount more toward the rear of the rocket? How high did it go on an F engine?

 

[chrisudy]

Did you use an estes F engine? Did you also move the motor mount more toward the rear of the rocket? How high did it go on an F engine?

Motor mount is in the stock position. I did add some nose weight to bring the CG back to stock location.
And - I haven't flown it yet... I have about 20 finished rockets still waiting for their first flight...

Chris

 

[cerving]

I upgraded to a 29mm mount - can fly on the Estes 29mm BP motors.

Chris

The Estes 29mm BP motors are pretty wimpy... I wouldn't try one with anything that heavy. I know you want to go with "store bought" motors, you might think about trying some Aerotech single-use composite motors. They're WAY better than anything Estes has, and you'll save some weight because you won't be clustering the heavy low-thrust BP motors.

 

[BenAlbers]

Hi,

I would surely put 5 pcs KLIMA 18 mm D9 motors in this rocket. Five motors just like the real thing.... and you get 100Ns to fly to approx. 300 meter high.

Ben Albers

 

[Handeman]

A 29mm MMT and 20 more rockets waiting for first flight? Are any of those 29mm? Many of them 24mm? If most are 24mm I would recommend an AT 24/40 case and reloads. If you buy the 24/40 24mm Hobbyline RMS for $39 and use E28 reloads at about $7 each instead of E20 single use at $10 each, you'll make up the cost of the case in about 13 flights, before you even get the first flight on those 20. This would also work with an adapter for 29mm MMT rockets if they aren't too heavy.

Of course a 29/40-120 Hobbyline case is also a goto case. The reloads are much less then 29mm SU motors.

I know a lot of folks don't want to jump into reloads, especially the AT ones because they are "complicated" but if you assembly 3 or 4, I think you'll find it get pretty easy and quick to put a reload together and fly. They are also very dependable. I've flown hundreds over the last 15 years and the only failures were reload issues and AT replace the forward closures and reload kits for me. I can't imagine flying a lot of MPR without those two size reload cases.

 

[DavidMcCann]

I've never been able to decide whats more fun to take photos of.... Saturn V's, Clusters, or E9/E12's

This plan is my dream come true.

 

[visualtrek]

so, if an Aerotech "E" motor is th esame size as an estes "D" motor, can I use the stock estes engine tube & meta clip? or do I have to use something else?

 

[shreadvector]

Don't forget the 24/60 case which will have more reload choices very soon.

With the Estes 24 to 29mm adapter it will easily lift most Model Rockets with 29mm motor mounts.

I'm handing out free adapters to local folks at my club launches if they get some of my leftover 24/60 reloads that i bought for local TARC teams.

A 29mm MMT and 20 more rockets waiting for first flight? Are any of those 29mm? Many of them 24mm? If most are 24mm I would recommend an AT 24/40 case and reloads. If you buy the 24/40 24mm Hobbyline RMS for $39 and use E28 reloads at about $7 each instead of E20 single use at $10 each, you'll make up the cost of the case in about 13 flights, before you even get the first flight on those 20. This would also work with an adapter for 29mm MMT rockets if they aren't too heavy.

Of course a 29/40-120 Hobbyline case is also a goto case. The reloads are much less then 29mm SU motors.

I know a lot of folks don't want to jump into reloads, especially the AT ones because they are "complicated" but if you assembly 3 or 4, I think you'll find it get pretty easy and quick to put a reload together and fly. They are also very dependable. I've flown hundreds over the last 15 years and the only failures were reload issues and AT replace the forward closures and reload kits for me. I can't imagine flying a lot of MPR without those two size reload cases.

 

[shreadvector]

The Aerotech E15-4 or E20-4 (they are the same motor with diferent labels) is PERFECT for the Saturn V.

The only thing to be aware of is the "Hibachi Effect". Protect the inside of the motor mount and stuffer tube above the motor.

https://apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter28.pdf

so, if an Aerotech "E" motor is th esame size as an estes "D" motor, can I use the stock estes engine tube & meta clip? or do I have to use something else?

 

[visualtrek]

Can I use my Estes Pro Series II launcher with the Aerotech motors? Will it have enough power for those igniters?

 

[Daddyisabar]

If you are going to use different motors (BP, single use composites and reloads) I would just skip the engine block and hook and friction fit with tape. Saves weight, tape is cheap. Stock 24mm tube is fine.

Some times the engine block is a bit thick to let the forward closure of the AT reload casing through. Sometimes the hook can get in the way or scratch the anodizing on the forward closure.

If you are going to use Estes 24mm E12 motors you can install the block for an E and then use the orange adapter spacer on the 24/40 reload casing or D12 motor.

The basic rule of thumb is to just make everything you want to use fits before assembling the mount. The simpler the better, The lighter weight the better.

Clustering AP takes some experience and is harder to light than BP. D12's are superior to E9 or E12's for what you are doing. All kinds of combos will work, just make sure it is stable, so more weight on the bottom means more weight on top and so on and so on...

 

[Daddyisabar]

As said above, a single composite motor is the best choice, especially to get some experience. Then get fancy with clusters.

 

[visualtrek]

I was reconsidering the issue, and maybe just clustering d12's. If I don't cluster, will one Aerotech E14 or E20 be enough to lift that rocket?

 

[rharshberger]

The Aerotech E15-4 or E20-4 (they are the same motor with diferent labels) is PERFECT for the Saturn V.

The only thing to be aware of is the "Hibachi Effect". Protect the inside of the motor mount and stuffer tube above the motor.

https://apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter28.pdf

The Hibachi effect and recently mentioned in another thread, Bernoulli Lock, make sure and keep the bottom of the rocket an inch or so above the blast deflector ( or more if possible).

 

[Daddyisabar]

I was reconsidering the issue, and maybe just clustering d12's. If I don't cluster, will one Aerotech E14 or E20 be enough to lift that rocket?

Build stock (light) and in good conditions you will get a nice, slow, smokey, NASA style liftoff which is pleasing to the scale eye. Ripping it off the pad on 3 D12s or more might not be so pleasing to the scale eye.

Using 5 D9 kilma motors smuggled in from Germany, with nozzles on, launched at a secret location, with staging and a lander using a retro rocket to land upright, that would be cool.