Estes Saturn 1B: Build Tips and Advice Thread

[BSNW]

Hey all-

I got an Estes Saturn 1B kit and I have to say it was/is a joy to build. However, there are a lot of techniques I have never encountered before that I would like to seek discussion and advice on for the benefit of all who build this, and other kits like it. I found the kit to not be that difficult to actually build. Where it gets you is the detail stuff.....like putting on a wrap without getting the spray adhesive on the top of the wrap when handling to apply it ($#!*).

I am hoping that many other people post questions on this and the Saturn V kit on this thread so we all can learn from each other.

I LOVE a challenge and I love this kit. So this is the place for all you master modelers to show us your stuff. OR for those who are less than skilled (me) to tell folks of the mistakes to avoid.

Either way I hope we all can have a fun conversation on this great kit (or the Saturn V kit). At this point, I have built mine and have moved on to priming and finishing......something I will need much help on! I consider this kit as my flying-practice kit. I plan on building 1 to 2 more and want to perfect it as best as I can. I did not do a build thread as I consider myself not worthy of such a kit. I do well on smooth surfaces and complex designs, but this build is loaded with (little) details that I find challenging.

SO....I will start off by asking......

1) How in the world does one paint a razor straight line over and through the corrugations on the wrap?!!! I mean COME ON!..... I tried to use yellow (low tack) Frog tape and SLOWLY do a line by pushing the tape down around and over the corrugations as I go with a blunted tooth pick....this was a test. I fear after the spray....it will look like heck if a few bleed. HOW in the world do you master modelers do this?

I have more questions, but I will start off with this one....

Thanks!!
Andrew

 

[MALBAR 70]

Check out Chris's (hcmbanjo) blog, there are a lot of great tips from a true master builder.
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2020/11/estes-saturn-1b-7251-build-part-1-parts.html

 

[Jimmy]

Hey all-

I got an Estes Saturn 1B kit and I have to say it was/is a joy to build. However, there are a lot of techniques I have never encountered before that I would like to seek discussion and advice on for the benefit of all who build this, and other kits like it. I found the kit to not be that difficult to actually build. Where it gets you is the detail stuff.....like putting on a wrap without getting the spray adhesive on the top of the wrap when handling to apply it ($#!*).

I am hoping that many other people post questions on this and the Saturn V kit on this thread so we all can learn from each other.

I LOVE a challenge and I love this kit. So this is the place for all you master modelers to show us your stuff. OR for those who are less than skilled (me) to tell folks of the mistakes to avoid.

Either way I hope we all can have a fun conversation on this great kit (or the Saturn V kit). At this point, I have built mine and have moved on to priming and finishing......something I will need much help on! I consider this kit as my flying-practice kit. I plan on building 1 to 2 more and want to perfect it as best as I can. I did not do a build thread as I consider myself not worthy of such a kit. I do well on smooth surfaces and complex designs, but this build is loaded with (little) details that I find challenging.

SO....I will start off by asking......

1) How in the world does one paint a razor straight line over and through the corrugations on the wrap?!!! I mean COME ON!..... I tried to use yellow (low tack) Frog tape and SLOWLY do a line by pushing the tape down around and over the corrugations as I go with a blunted tooth pick....this was a test. I fear after the spray....it will look like heck if a few bleed. HOW in the world do you master modelers do this?

I have more questions, but I will start off with this one....

Thanks!!
Andrew

A tip to prevent bleeding through the edge of the tape is to spray the model again with the base color. By doing this the paint will fill in the border of the tape and prevent bleeding through when the next color is applied. I get nice sharp lines this way. By the way I just got this kit also and am stoked to get started. Any tips on construction would be awesome.

 

[Jimmy]

I’ve been waiting a loooong time for Estes to bring back the Saturn 1B. The 1B was hard to find in the early 90’s and I always thought it would look great along side the Saturn V (#2001) that my dad gave me in 1989. I never had the guts to build it because it was far beyond my abilities. To this day it is still in the box. Now I finally have a companion for it and the confidence at age 42 to build both of these.

 

[hcmbanjo]

Check out Chris's (hcmbanjo) blog, there are a lot of great tips from a true master builder.
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2020/11/estes-saturn-1b-7251-build-part-1-parts.html

Here's the whole build from finish (where we are right now) to start:
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/search/label/E Saturn 1B

 

[Jimmy]

Here's the whole build from finish (where we are right now) to start:
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/search/label/E Saturn 1B

This is exciting. Thanks for posting this. I will examine and follow each step carefully.

 

[BSNW]

Thank you Jimmy for the tip on spraying the base coat color prior to the black. I will give it a try.

On another note I am also thankful for the link to Chris's Blog. I learned many new approaches and will try them myself. On my second kit I will paint more before building, I see the advantage of this in some situations. no doubt there is a ton of great information there.

However, wanted to say that I hoped this particular thread would be a place where people who are actively building (who are not on the level of Chris) can ask questions and share information during the build process....kind of like a discussion and a place to share some information. Anyway....

!) One thing that happened to me was in reference to page #10...Install Wire Anchor. I found that even thought I followed the instructions precisely, that the portion of the wire anchor that lays flat along the body tube, prevents the LEM shroud cone from properly seating in the body tube. i had to Demel out a tiny portion of the cone shoulder to get the tube to properly seat. I will post a photo to show you what I mean. i found this out AFTER I glued the wire down.

!) I also saw that my wrap in one spot seemed to "melt" a bit. Once I noticed this, I did not touch it and let it dry/harden. My only suspects are my spray adhesive, OR my CA accelerator. Maybe the spray adhesive was a bit too thick in that spot OR some accelerator wicked down when I had to tack down a tiny section/edge of the wrap. Either way, it only happened in one small area and it is not really that noticeable. I just wanted to put it out there for others.

Again, for those on the fence with this kit the actual physical build is really not that bad/hard, It was really an enjoyable and smooth build. BUT....the order of building and its relation to the finishing work is what makes this kit very challenging (if you want museum quality). It all depends on your threshold and definition of fun.

My fun comes from making it look as best I can....challenging myself but not taking it way too serious...and taking it out and actually launching it as many times as I can!....Like we did when we were kids! So I am not worried if mine is not a museum quality. But it is fun to learn new building techniques.

I would love to hear from others on some things they came across during their builds.

Andrew K

 

[BSNW]

Here are some photos of what I was talking about in post #7

The wire harness issue:

 

[BSNW]

Here is what I was talking about in post #7...

Watch your wraps!!! They melt easy!!! I am petty sure after much sanding and priming it wont look too bad. GOOD ENOUGH FOR FUN!!!

 

[BSNW]

Here is a "middle of priming" shot. I know I have my work cut out for me in regards to the finishing work!! But hey, that's all part of the fun!

 

[BSNW]

I almost forgot...........here are two small modifications.

1) Since the recovery space in this kit is akin to the old Estes Rubicon....Remember that!!!????? I decided to glue a small Kevlar lanyard into the motor tube. You still can pack the wadding down in the motor tube per the instructions. It also takes the ejection forces off the upper body tube....which is very thin and delicate. you can see that I soaked the body upper body tube in CA and the rest was saturated with water based polyurethane.

2) I hate engine hooks...I think it is time for Estes to move on.....they DO have 18mm, 24mm and 29mm screw retainers. If not friction fit.....when done properly, it is safe. This modification was a " No-Brainer"....Yes, the bottom display nozzles still fit!

 

[kuririn]

Here are some photos of what i was talking about in post #7

The wire harness issue:

If you align the template with the top of the CM tube the metal anchor slot will be centered on the tube.
The centers of the RCS nozzles should be approx 9/16" from the top of the CM tube.
From the pictures I'm guessing you may have aligned the template with the bottom end of the tube.

 

[BSNW]

If you align the template with the top of the CM tube the metal anchor slot will be centered on the tube.
The centers of the RCS nozzles should be approx 9/16" from the top of the CM tube.
From the pictures I'm guessing you may have aligned the template with the bottom end of the tube.

Thanks for your reply! I see what you mean. As I understand, I then should be able to simply flip the tube around. When I did that, the top cone/capsule did not fit either. Note the wire in the photo in post #8 comes almost all the way to the edge of the body tube. I used the guide but the instructions (IMO) are a bit vague....see below.

 

[kuririn]

Watch your wraps!!! They melt easy!!! I am petty sure after much sanding and priming it wont look too bad. GOOD ENOUGH FOR FUN!!!

Very important to test adhesives on scrap material before using it on the full wrap.
CA and contact cement formulations vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Once someone recommended contact cement for adhering styrene wraps.
When I used Permatex contact cement it dissolved the plastic.
Even within the same brand of adhesive one type of CA may work and another type might destroy your wrap.
Example: Starbond thick CA works well to tack down the ends of styrene wraps. Starbond thin CA will dissolve it.

 

[kuririn]

As I understand, I then should be able to simply flip the tube around.

No, if you flip the tube around the slot will still be off center (the other way).

 

[GlenP]

One idea about the metal retaining wire. The instructions have you glue a cardstock paper layer on top to secure it in place. In addition to that, you could add another layer of paper before you slit the tube and install the wire to strengthen the body tube a little in that spot.

 

[BSNW]

No, if you flip the tube around the slot will still be off center (the other way).

AH!!!...OKAY! I see what you mean. THANKS. Well, this is something to remember on the next build I do with this kit. It turned out okay this time, but I will remember what you said. I am not the sharpest exact-o knife on the table!!! HA!!

Thanks.

 

[BSNW]

One idea about the metal retaining wire. The instructions have you glue a cardstock paper layer on top to secure it in place. In addition to that, you could add another layer of paper before you slit the tube and install the wire to strengthen the body tube a little in that spot.

Thanks Glen!

I see what you mean, this is why I used epoxy and "shmeered" is around a bit in that area. I am guessing that did not help my nose cone fit as well.....Oh well, live and learn.

Thanks

 

[BSNW]

Very important to test adhesives on scrap material before using it on the full wrap.
CA and contact cement formulations vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Once someone recommended contact cement for adhering styrene wraps.
When I used Permatex contact cement it dissolved the plastic.
Even within the same brand of adhesive one type of CA may work and another type might destroy your wrap.
Example: Starbond thick CA works well to tack down the ends of styrene wraps. Starbond thin CA will dissolve it.

Man, that is something. The wrap only got soft in one area and it was an area that got hit with a tiny bit of Ca accelerator or it was a thick spot of the spray adhesive. My bet is on the accelerator, as the rest of the wraps look great and I had no issues.

Maybe we should make a list of what works AND what eats the plastic for this particular kit?

I used ELMER'S Craft Bond spray adhesive and it seems to work well. The Accelerator that I suspect melted the wrap is from Bob Smith.

GREAT INFO GUYS!!!

Andrew

 

[kuririn]

I decided to glue a small Kevlar lanyard into the motor tube.

Good choice. It amazes me that to this day Estes refuses to use kevlar in their recovery systems.
It is standard practice for builders.

 

[kuririn]

I used ELMER'S Craft Bond spray adhesive and it seems to work well. The Accelerator that I suspect melted the wrap is from Bob Smith.

Just curious, if you used spray adhesive for the wrap, then why use CA accelerator?

 

[BSNW]

Just curious, if you used spray adhesive for the wrap, then why use CA accelerator?

There was a small spot next to the seam of the wrap (on the bottom) that was not bonded down. I used a tiny drop of CA to glued it down. I then used a drop of accelerator to fix it (from an eyedropper). Looks like it wicked down and softened the wrap. It is just a theory as the rest of the wraps turned out good.

Andrew

 

[kuririn]

Could be the CA that softened the wrap.

 

[heada]

Man, that is something. The wrap only got soft in one area and it was an area that got hit with a tiny bit of Ca accelerator or it was a thick spot of the spray adhesive. My bet is on the accelerator, as the rest of the wraps look great and I had no issues.

Maybe we should make a list of what works AND what eats the plastic for this particular kit?

I used ELMER'S Craft Bond spray adhesive and it seems to work well. The Accelerator that I suspect melted the wrap is from Bob Smith.

GREAT INFO GUYS!!!

Andrew

Most accelerators I've seen are acetone based (or similar organic solvent) which is well known to soften/melt/dissolve styrene.

 

[kuririn]

Adhesives with MEK will also melt thin styrene plastic.

 

[Jimmy]

Thank you Jimmy for the tip on spraying the base coat color prior to the black. I will give it a try.

On another note I am also thankful for the link to Chris's Blog. I learned many new approaches and will try them myself. On my second kit I will paint more before building, I see the advantage of this in some situations. no doubt there is a ton of great information there.

However, wanted to say that I hoped this particular thread would be a place where people who are actively building (who are not on the level of Chris) can ask questions and share information during the build process....kind of like a discussion and a place to share some information. Anyway....

!) One thing that happened to me was in reference to page #10...Install Wire Anchor. I found that even thought I followed the instructions precisely, that the portion of the wire anchor that lays flat along the body tube, prevents the LEM shroud cone from properly seating in the body tube. i had to Demel out a tiny portion of the cone shoulder to get the tube to properly seat. I will post a photo to show you what I mean. i found this out AFTER I glued the wire down.

!) I also saw that my wrap in one spot seemed to "melt" a bit. Once I noticed this, I did not touch it and let it dry/harden. My only suspects are my spray adhesive, OR my CA accelerator. Maybe the spray adhesive was a bit too thick in that spot OR some accelerator wicked down when I had to tack down a tiny section/edge of the wrap. Either way, it only happened in one small area and it is not really that noticeable. I just wanted to put it out there for others.

Again, for those on the fence with this kit the actual physical build is really not that bad/hard, It was really an enjoyable and smooth build. BUT....the order of building and its relation to the finishing work is what makes this kit very challenging (if you want museum quality). It all depends on your threshold and definition of fun.

My fun comes from making it look as best I can....challenging myself but not taking it way too serious...and taking it out and actually launching it as many times as I can!....Like we did when we were kids! So I am not worried if mine is not a museum quality. But it is fun to learn new building techniques.

I would love to hear from others on some things they came across during their builds.

Andrew K

I just opened the box, inventoried the parts, and already I'm thinking ahead with the fuel tubes. Do I stick with the instructions and paint all the tubes white or should I be adventurous and go with Apollo 7's alternating white/black scheme? If I go Apollo 7 then the AS206 decals won't be correct. Darn......

 

[jazzviper1]

Hey all-

I got an Estes Saturn 1B kit and I have to say it was/is a joy to build. However, there are a lot of techniques I have never encountered before that I would like to seek discussion and advice on for the benefit of all who build this, and other kits like it. I found the kit to not be that difficult to actually build. Where it gets you is the detail stuff.....like putting on a wrap without getting the spray adhesive on the top of the wrap when handling to apply it ($#!*).

I am hoping that many other people post questions on this and the Saturn V kit on this thread so we all can learn from each other.

I LOVE a challenge and I love this kit. So this is the place for all you master modelers to show us your stuff. OR for those who are less than skilled (me) to tell folks of the mistakes to avoid.

Either way I hope we all can have a fun conversation on this great kit (or the Saturn V kit). At this point, I have built mine and have moved on to priming and finishing......something I will need much help on! I consider this kit as my flying-practice kit. I plan on building 1 to 2 more and want to perfect it as best as I can. I did not do a build thread as I consider myself not worthy of such a kit. I do well on smooth surfaces and complex designs, but this build is loaded with (little) details that I find challenging.

SO....I will start off by asking......

1) How in the world does one paint a razor straight line over and through the corrugations on the wrap?!!! I mean COME ON!..... I tried to use yellow (low tack) Frog tape and SLOWLY do a line by pushing the tape down around and over the corrugations as I go with a blunted tooth pick....this was a test. I fear after the spray....it will look like heck if a few bleed. HOW in the world do you master modelers do this?

I have more questions, but I will start off with this one....

Thanks!!
Andrew

Tamya tape. Best modelers masking tape any where.

 

[BSNW]

Adhesives with MEK will also melt thin styrene plastic.

I think at this point I won't use any accelerator on my next build of this kit!
Andrew

 

[BSNW]

I spent some time doing some fine sanding on the rocket.....I then did another thin coat of primer. Next comes the white.....two thin coats. Then the fun begins with the black! I have the fine point sharpies, model masters flat acrylic, fine tip art brushes....I will look for the Tamya tape....Tamya makes great paint....I am ready for the fun challenge!

Andrew

 

[Jimmy]

Engine mount assembly done. Fuel tubes primed and sanded. Going to take this nice and slow.