# ESTES PATRIOT (#2056) Motor Upgrade

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#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
NEED some ideas!! Seeking to UPGRADE a stock (and as yet UNBUILT) Estes Patriot to use BOTH the stock 18mm motors AND 24mm motors (bigger C's, D's, and maybe E's).

a.) Have read that Estes rocket power recommendations are conservative.

b.) Wish to LEARN the various techniques required for the transition from LPR to MPR... thought this model might be a good candidate.

Should I use TTW fins?
MMT length required for a 24mm motors?
Fiber board OR Ply CRs?

My MAC WILL NOT download ROCKSIM!! Tried EVERYTHING...including TRF self-help and directives as well as ONLINE searches to get this program on my computer!!

Planning to scratch build an Estes Leviathan... already have the 29mm MMT, 3" rocket tubing, nose cone, downloaded and have printed a patterned 1/8" plywood FIN design. Also ordered and received the material to scratch build a SCION.

OH! My North Coast Rocketry SA-14 Archer should be at the door next week!!

The Estes Patriot is on the build board with the Excalibur coming up next....then the Leviathan and Scion builds after this.

Thank you!

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TRF Supporter
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#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Should I use TTW fins?
MMT length required for a 24mm motors?
Fiber board OR Ply CRs?
Should I use TTW fins?

You can if it makes you feel better, really not necessary on 24mm BP motors, 24mm Composites like the AT 24/40 and AT 24/60 it will probably extend the life of the rocket by preventing/lessening fin flutter (might even consider basswood instead of balsa depending on the quality of the kit balsa).

MMT Length required for 24mm motors?

If using the motor hook (I ditch them and use Estes 24mm retainers instead) it needs to be long enough for the hook, mostly I ditch the motor block and hook and either use the 24mm motor retainers or friction fit that way I can fly any 24mm motor (may require additional nose weight).

Fiberboard or Ply CR's? Either double the fiberboard CR's or use ply, even a balsa/basswood skinned with fiberboard would be plenty strong.

I have done similar to what you are doing with my Estes BT60 Nike Smoke, on a nice day and with a AT F35 it gets up and moves out to about 2200' to 2400' AGL. It has become general purpose fun flyer with the addition of a JLCR and a JL3.

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
WOW! An F-35 in a Nike Smoke?? Sounds like some neck-snapping fun with THAT guy!

I've got some spare basswood laying around in the shop... I'll give this a try, thanks!

Had flippantly considered a balsa or ply skinned fiber CR... but its really a viable solution, huh? COOL!

Have already ditched the motor hook for the screw-on 24mm motor retainer that are offered. I will be using the 1/8 to 1/4 masking tape trick to ditch the MMT motor thrust block.

I'd REALLY like to see how the Estes Patriot moves with a D12... and steering clear of SHORT delays for this model.

I've been SERIOUSLY considering the composites, as well... but BP motors in this size also provide some cheap fun.

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
May someone PLEASE run this Estes PATRIOT Rocket through ROCKSIM and advise me what the CG and PG are and the potential nose cone weight using an Estes D-12... with only marginal stock modifications? Thanks.

#### samb

Can't say about a 24mm upgrade but I can tell you what I did for my 29mm upgrade of the Estes Patriot.

- cardboard centering rings and yellow glue are plenty good enough
- used the kit fins, attached to the body tube with yellow glue and filleted with some hobby store 15 minute epoxy
- a proven technique when uprating the motor in a known stable kit like the Patriot is to calculate the weight difference between the stock motor mount components and your upgraded components, add the weight of bigger motors (like an Estes E16 or F15), then add nose weight equal to that amount. In my case I added 65 grams of Walmart lead split shot and epoxy.

Not being a MAC guy I don't know what your options are for a sim program. An alternative is a website called Thrustcurve.org Very quick and dirty and quite useful to get a idea of what a rocket will do on a range of motors. The sites creator, John Coker, has some excellent how-to videos as well. For example:

http://www.jcrocket.com/choosing-motors.shtml

Here is one example of the things you'll find on Thrustcurve. An Estes Patriot with a 24mm upgrade:
http://www.thrustcurve.org/motorguide.jsp?rocket=1383

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#### Rex R

##### LV2
I would have suggested staying with the stock motor mount(18mm) and varied the motors since one can buy Quest Q-jet motors up to a C12 size (which should make it easy to lose this model ). hmm, a D12 weighs in at 1.61 oz...so you will probably need aproximatly 0.8oz of nose weight to balance the rocket.
note; the Big Bertha is a very good candidate for motor upgrades (within reason) on a C motor it is a good demo flier, on a D it is zipping right along, on an E20 it teleports off the pad (around 1800'), F39s you're pretty much out one rocket and motor case because it is Gone in under two seconds(and the Bertha doesn't need any extra nose weight!).
Rex

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
OMG!! 29mm?? WOW!

Very VERY tempting modification... and I've got some 29mm MMT tubing at the ready... but WOW!!!

Not quite ready to sit at the BIG BOY'S Table quite yet... but I'm working my way up, though!

IMPRESSIVE, samb....VERY impressive!

How much weight was needed in the nose cone with this set-up?

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
May someone PLEASE run this Estes PATRIOT Rocket through ROCKSIM and advise me what the CG and PG are and the potential nose cone weight using an Estes D-12... with only marginal stock modifications? Thanks.
Mine with TTW fins and approximately 3.5oz built weight minus motor requires about .5oz to get a Stability margin of .9 to 1.0 calibres.

Edit: That was with a AT F35W motor, of course your build will be a little different. Generally I aim for a stability right at or just under 1.0 on anything subsonic, because they seem to fly great in the medium winds we get around the Northwestern US.

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#### Rex R

##### LV2
you should in any case go to a larger diameter launch rod such as 1/4" or a mini rail to reduce launch guide whip

#### samb

OMG!! 29mm?? WOW!

Very VERY tempting modification... and I've got some 29mm MMT tubing at the ready... but WOW!!!

Not quite ready to sit at the BIG BOY'S Table quite yet... but I'm working my way up, though!

IMPRESSIVE, samb....VERY impressive!
Thanks. The points I wanted to make is that you can do alot with the stock materials, there are tools and techniques that work until you get a full blown sim program, and when upgrading a kit you have to account for the weight you add to the back end.

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
"Here is one example of the things you'll find on Thrustcurve. An Estes Patriot with a 24mm upgrade:"
http://www.thrustcurve.org/motorguide.jsp?rocket=1383

I knew you guys would get me pointed around in the right direction.
*Estes D11-5... 63ft/sec off the pad, 699 AGL*... I wish to have a longer DELAY than 5s on this model. Prefer about 7s Delay. Thoughts?

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
"you should in any case go to a larger diameter launch rod such as 1/4" or a mini rail to reduce launch guide whip"

ABSOLUTELY! Already have the 1/4 rod and guides. Working on putting together a Rockwell Jawhorse launcher with 1010 for my bigger designs.

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
"F39s you're pretty much out one rocket and motor case because it is Gone in under two seconds" (Rex R)

"How-To make a model rocket disappear" for less than $23.00, right? LOL. #### rharshberger ##### Well-Known Member "F39s you're pretty much out one rocket and motor case because it is Gone in under two seconds" (Rex R) Blink-and-its-gone! LOL. "How-To make a model rocket disappear" for less than$23.00, right? LOL.
We call it "teleporting" off the pad, whether you blink or not it's GONE! I live in the Northwest so flying crazy little rockets with big motors have a fair chance of getting recovered, as long as multiple people are helping to spot it on its way back down.

#### Rex R

##### LV2
well the aero tech 24/40 motor case generally runs about $40 usd...add about$23 to that... and yes I've seen someone lose his pig bertha that way. other note, the Big Bertha started life as the 3 engine cluster Ranger payload carrier(before the 'mighty D' engine came out) a D powered bertha can carry up to a 4 oz of payload.
Rex

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
Simplest upgrade: Build it stock and use Q-Jet C12-4s and D16-4s (or -6s on a calm day). Both will provide a significant performance boost over an Estes C6-3/-5.

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
Totally stock estes patriot took an 18mm AT D10 composite.

921' carrying Altimeter2 and chute release

An altimeter adds a handy few grams to the front

Also, have you tried Neil_w's Openrocket installer for Mac?

#### GlenP

##### Well-Known Member
May someone PLEASE run this Estes PATRIOT Rocket through ROCKSIM and advise me what the CG and PG are and the potential nose cone weight using an Estes D-12... with only marginal stock modifications? Thanks.
As a rough estimate for nose weight needed to maintain the stock c.g. location when using a heavier engine, I would measure or look up the weights of the stock C and the heavier D engines. I would add that difference in weight as removable nose ballast, like with some washers that can be tied to the nose securely, when launching with the heavier D engine. You might not need to add that much, ensure that you remain below the total lift off weight for the heavier engine, which should not be hard to do for the D. The more accurate sims would make sure you don't add more weight than actually needed and get a good speed at the end of the launch rod.

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
Just got back from Hobby Lobby... got some Estes D12-5 and some E9-6. (Quite the deal using their 40% code).

I'll break out my triple beam balance scale and start the computations. See what happens.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Just got back from Hobby Lobby... got some Estes D12-5 and some E9-6. (Quite the deal using their 40% code).

I'll break out my triple beam balance scale and start the computations. See what happens.
Hmmm E9s....realistic recovery potential....[emoji95]

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
People should remember that there are several versions of the Patriot available from Estes (in and out of production). You should be a little more specific to the version you're working on... Citation Patriot (KC-3/652), Pro Series Patriot (2066), Patriot (2056/1248/1450/1843).

#### JERRYR708

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I flew my stock Estes (2056) Patriot M-104 on a C6-5 with 2 payloads:
1. Estes Altimeter: 288 ft.
2. 808 keychain camera
The engine was way underpowered for just the 2 small payloads. I was thinking of removing the old engine block and put either a cluster or add a 24mm to it. Then remove the horrible decals and spray paint it.

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#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
Also, have you tried Neil_w's Openrocket installer for Mac?
WAAA-HOOO!! SUCCESS!!

So? I clicked the "?" in the lower LEFT corner of the
“OpenRocket” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer."

Followed the procedure listed by the "help window" that popped up when selecting the "?" and..... BINGO!!
IT WORKS!!!

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!

Thanks Nyrunner!!

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
As a rough estimate for nose weight needed to maintain the stock c.g. location when using a heavier engine, I would measure or look up the weights of the stock C and the heavier D engines. I would add that difference in weight as removable nose ballast, like with some washers that can be tied to the nose securely, when launching with the heavier D engine. You might not need to add that much, ensure that you remain below the total lift off weight for the heavier engine, which should not be hard to do for the D. The more accurate sims would make sure you don't add more weight than actually needed and get a good speed at the end of the launch rod.
This method will overdo it, since at least on this model there’s quite a bit more distance from the nose cone to the CG than there is from the motor to the CG. Let me go measure my stock current reissue Citation Patriot (to K’Tesh’s point) and tell you where it balances with a C6-5 in it. Then you will have lever arms and can calculate the added ballast needed to account for a 24mm motor vs. the 18.

.......

OK - my model balances about 16 inches from the tip of the nose cone. It is stock except for a Semroc BT-60 baffle (the cup style) installed just a little forward of there. The middle of the motor mount tube is about half that far aft of the CG. So....you should be able to add a little over 1g of mass in the form of modeling clay tamped into the tip of the nose cone for every 2g an E9-6 weighs over a C6-5. Heck, I might as well do those masses as well.....

........

Grabbing random examples of both from my boxes I get a C6-5 at 24.3g and an E9-6 at 64.5. So you need to put about 20g up in the tip of the nose cone to maintain the same stability margin. Are you sure you don’t just want to use an 18mm composite (Q-jet C12, D16 or Aerotech D10 or D21)?

I also share the concern about the E9s. I have had better luck with them than some folks have, but I have had them blow up more than one model as well. E12s have a better but not perfect track record. That said, I have seen one Aerotech D21 CATO and destroy a lovely Dr. Zooch Soyuz, so they’re not infallible.....

ADDED: I don’t know why I was assuming the OP is about the Citation Patriot as opposed to the semi-scale Patriot missile. If the latter, ignore the specifics of what I posted above. However the approach should still work.

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#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
People should remember that there are several versions of the Patriot available from Estes (in and out of production). You should be a little more specific to the version you're working on... Citation Patriot (KC-3/652), Pro Series Patriot (2066), Patriot (2056/1248/1450/1843).
K'tesh, I am building the Estes Patriot #2506... Thank you for pointing this out to me.

I have just edited this thread's title to reflect this omission.

#### Luzwingnut

TRF Supporter
You folks KNOW that I'm going to be UP ALL NIGHT playing around with my new toy, "OPENROCKET" simulator, yes?

Whole new level on the "FUN-METER"

Did a web search for the Estes Pro Series PATRIOT! WOW!!
Really really nice!!
May opt to do a scratch build on that one, too!

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#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
You folks KNOW that I'm going to be UP ALL NIGHT playing around with my new toy, "OPENROCKET" simulator, yes?

Whole new level on the "FUN-METER"

Did a web search for the Estes Pro Series PATRIOT! WOW!!
Really really nice!!
May opt to do a scratch build on that one, too!

It's a classic. I just finished measuring and modeling the one I bought from a forum member last year (Dated Dec '92)
I may get around to making part drawings of it and throwing together a pdf

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
You folks KNOW that I'm going to be UP ALL NIGHT playing around with my new toy, "OPENROCKET" simulator, yes?

Whole new level on the "FUN-METER"

Did a web search for the Estes Pro Series PATRIOT! WOW!!
Really really nice!!
May opt to do a scratch build on that one, too!
For the PS Patriot thats one of the few options to scratch/clone they do however pop up occasionally in yhe Yard Sale section or Ebay for insane prices. For proper cloning the nosecone is the same as tje Big Daddy's.