Estes Patriot 2056 - Improving Scale

[GregGleason]

I have an Estes Patriot #2056 that I want to make more scale in appearance. This is not a hyper-scale attempt, I am just wondering what I can do that perhaps do to make improvements to the overall look.

I bought the kit a few years ago when it was on clearance at Fry's.



Greg

 

[GregGleason]

One of the first things I had to do is figure out how close to scale the kit is.

I had to find the actual dimensions and compare them to the kit.

I plan to add some fiberglass to the airframe so I estimated the final OD of the kit at 1.700".

With that given established, the airframe length was about 0.076" (1.9mm) too long. But the length didn't include the boat tail. So it looks like that will have to be scratch built.

The nose cone is about 0.165" (4.2mm) too long, but I'll figure out what to do about that later.

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

Putting it to paper (metaphorically).

The approximate scale is 1/9.6, with the indicated dimensions on the drawing.



Greg

 

[Trident]

I have an Estes Patriot #2056 that I want to make more scale in appearance. This is not a hyper-scale attempt, I am just wondering what I can do that perhaps do to make improvements to the overall look.

I bought the kit a few years ago when it was on clearance at Fry's.

View attachment 313215

Greg

I had the big Estes Patriot that flew on 4 D12s. It had a very short taper/tailcone on the bottom.

 

[Woody's Workshop]

I don't remember a tail cone on mine. And everything went to storage last week so I have nothing to look at.
I built 1 stock, and the other with the Long D engine tube.
Sim was ok on Roc Sim.
If you want a custom tail cone, may I suggest Gordy/Sandman?
He is still doing custom turnings.

 

[GregGleason]

I had the big Estes Patriot that flew on 4 D12s. It had a very short taper/tailcone on the bottom.

The Estes Pro Patriot 2066 looked like a great kit. According to the instructions, the tail cone and fin skins were made from card stock.

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

I don't remember a tail cone on mine. And everything went to storage last week so I have nothing to look at.
I built 1 stock, and the other with the Long D engine tube.
Sim was ok on Roc Sim.
If you want a custom tail cone, may I suggest Gordy/Sandman?
He is still doing custom turnings.

The Patriot 2056 kit does not come with a tail cone. The boat tail bottom diameter is about 91% of the major airframe diameter, so leaving it off is fine for sport scale.

The boat tail is a little over 5% of the rocket length, so adding it back should add a little to stability and, if light enough, should enhance performance.

Greg

 

[5x7]

To improve it, as folks have said add the boatail. I would also add the long wiring tunnels, make the fins scale size, which will require noseweight, and above all sand the diamond airfoil in the fins or make the fins built up. I built the pro series will all those features and it's really nice.

 

[GregGleason]

To improve it, as folks have said add the boatail. I would also add the long wiring tunnels, make the fins scale size, which will require noseweight, and above all sand the diamond airfoil in the fins or make the fins built up. I built the pro series will all those features and it's really nice.

Yes. The most daunting of those tasks are the fins. Cool looking, but hard to do it right. Don't know how I'll handle that yet.

I think this is a pic that I found on TRF a while back.

View attachment 313271

Greg

 

[Incongruent]

Yes. The most daunting of those tasks are the fins. Cool looking, but hard to do it right. Don't know how I'll handle that yet.

I think this is a pic that I found on TRF a while back.

View attachment 313271

Greg

For the fins, what I would do is cut out the shape in 1/32 or 1/64 inch plywood and stack sand to shape, then possibly (it's not needed) glue a 1/64 inch plywood spar (that's a bit taller than necessary) down the intersection of the leading and trailing bevels, which would add a bit of strength and help define the angle. The spar gets sanded down to the right height after gluing. Then balsa is attatched flush on either side of the spar (or just on the fin surface if the spar is not used) and the taper from the root to the tip of the fin is sanded in. Here, the 1/64 inch plywood can spar comes in handy as a guide (if it's exposed, the depth is reached. The bevels are sanded by masking at the edge of the plywood spar (so the plywood is exposed) if applicable (its not necessarily, but it helps with positioning since you don't have to mark/gouge the balsa with pencil) and the bevel is sanded in for each of the four bevel side things. Sand the bevels down to the center ply of the plywood, leaving the thickness of 1-3 sheets of paper. The plywood also makes the edge much less susceptible to denting. The fin is then finished based on preference.

The downside of this is that the fins turn out relatively heavy. The upside is relative ease as the plywood acts as a stop once the balsa is sanded and shows sanded depth through the layers once it gets sanded.
You can also add a strong TTW tab with the plywood if that floats your boat, but the bottoms of the fins might not be square after adding the balsa and the tab will prevent you from easily squaring them up. On the other hand, without the tab you'll probably need an external fillet.


Alternatively, you could use a strip of balsa as a spar down the center of the fin and fold a card stock fin around that. I haven't used this too successfully, but your mileage will vary in undefined quantities. MicroMeister has been successful with it though, and he has some pictures showing the process, so he would be the one to go to for this process.



Attached are photos of a practice fin made with the methods described in the first section. 1/32 inch plywood core, 1/64 inch spars. I used 220 grit for the bulk of the sanding and 400 for the smoothing and finishing. In this case, the 1/64 inch spars were a little short and there was a gap. That's not ideal.

 

[GregGleason]

One of the things I wanted to check is to see if the Patriot could take a 24mm motor and a Rocketarium retainer.

The good news is that it can, so now I need to figure out the placement of the CR's.



Greg

 

[GregGleason]

For the fins, what I would do is cut out the shape in 1/32 or 1/64 inch plywood and stack sand to shape, then possibly (it's not needed) glue a 1/64 inch plywood spar (that's a bit taller than necessary) down the intersection of the leading and trailing bevels, which would add a bit of strength and help define the angle. The spar gets sanded down to the right height after gluing. Then balsa is attatched flush on either side of the spar (or just on the fin surface if the spar is not used) and the taper from the root to the tip of the fin is sanded in. Here, the 1/64 inch plywood can spar comes in handy as a guide (if it's exposed, the depth is reached. The bevels are sanded by masking at the edge of the plywood spar (so the plywood is exposed) if applicable (its not necessarily, but it helps with positioning since you don't have to mark/gouge the balsa with pencil) and the bevel is sanded in for each of the four bevel side things. Sand the bevels down to the center ply of the plywood, leaving the thickness of 1-3 sheets of paper. The plywood also makes the edge much less susceptible to denting. The fin is then finished based on preference.

The downside of this is that the fins turn out relatively heavy. The upside is relative ease as the plywood acts as a stop once the balsa is sanded and shows sanded depth through the layers once it gets sanded.
You can also add a strong TTW tab with the plywood if that floats your boat, but the bottoms of the fins might not be square after adding the balsa and the tab will prevent you from easily squaring them up. On the other hand, without the tab you'll probably need an external fillet.


Alternatively, you could use a strip of balsa as a spar down the center of the fin and fold a card stock fin around that. I haven't used this too successfully, but your mileage will vary in undefined quantities. MicroMeister has been successful with it though, and he has some pictures showing the process, so he would be the one to go to for this process.



Attached are photos of a practice fin made with the methods described in the first section. 1/32 inch plywood core, 1/64 inch spars. I used 220 grit for the bulk of the sanding and 400 for the smoothing and finishing. In this case, the 1/64 inch spars were a little short and there was a gap. That's not ideal.

Nice!

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

The final thing I wanted to take a look at were the fins. I knew the Estes fins were bigger but I didn't know by how much.

I designed the scale fins and placed an outline (in red) of the Estes stock fin.



The stock Estes fin has an area of 3.03 square inches, whereas the scale fin has an area of 2.00 square inches. So the Estes fin has about 50% more area than the scale fin.

I'm not sure what that means, other than adding a bit of nose weight.

Greg

 

[5x7]

The scale fin looks great'

 

[Trident]

I don't remember a tail cone on mine. And everything went to storage last week so I have nothing to look at.
I built 1 stock, and the other with the Long D engine tube.
Sim was ok on Roc Sim.
If you want a custom tail cone, may I suggest Gordy/Sandman?
He is still doing custom turnings.

The Patriot I'm referring to is the Pro Series Patriot, kit #2066, which came out in the early 90s. It had a very short tailcone.

 

[Incongruent]

The final thing I wanted to take a look at were the fins. I knew the Estes fins were bigger but I didn't know by how much.

I designed the scale fins and placed an outline (in red) of the Estes stock fin.

View attachment 313420

The stock Estes fin has an area of 3.03 square inches, whereas the scale fin has an area of 2.00 square inches. So the Estes fin has about 50% more area than the scale fin.

I'm not sure what that means, other than adding a bit of nose weight.

Greg

Where did you get the scale data?

 

[GregGleason]

Where did you get the scale data?

It is from a NAR .pdf.

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

Here are a couple of screen shots from the NAR document.

Here are the overall dimensions.



Here are the fin dimensions.



Greg

 

[Incongruent]

Thanks. If I have enough time this weekend, I'll make a matching fin and document the process.

 

[GregGleason]

This is what I have come up with so far.



I still need to add the raceway fairings to the model.

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

One of the goals is to convert this to 24mm motors, with the D12 in mind.

I'm shooting for a weight of 150 grams of launch weight, sans motor, but it wouldn't surprise me if it wound up closer to 200 grams.

With the dimensions, weight, and motor determined, I could finally run a simulation.



This configuration puts it up close to 800 feet, and for a rocket this size that's about as high as I want it to go. Just for fun, I wondered what an AeroTech 24/40 RMS E18 would top out at 1,900 feet.

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

I am figuring out the fin thing for scale and get the diamond profile. I am going to try a mold. This is the design for the mold at this point.



I don't know what the fin material will be, but it may be a two-step process. 1) External shell, and 2) filler material.

Greg

 

[Incongruent]

I am figuring out the fin thing for scale and get the diamond profile. I am going to try a mold. This is the design for the mold at this point.

View attachment 314584

I don't know what the fin material will be, but it may be a two-step process. 1) External shell, and 2) filler material.

Greg

If the mold fails, the plywood and balsa method may work. I tried and made a stupid mistake (it still turned out okay, fortunately), but as long as you don't make the same mistake it'll work fairly well.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...essively-Time-Consuming-Compound-Beveled-Fins

 

[GregGleason]

If the mold fails, the plywood and balsa method may work. I tried and made a stupid mistake (it still turned out okay, fortunately), but as long as you don't make the same mistake it'll work fairly well.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...essively-Time-Consuming-Compound-Beveled-Fins

Cool stuff! I had not seen it until now. That looks like a good plan if what I'm trying doesn't work.

Greg

 

[GregGleason]

Another fin consideration (I'm beginning to think that this is going to be the central component of the rocket): How to mount them?

I want to be able to easily replace them when damaged. So I am considering adding a square shank (1/8" K&S brass square) to make it easier and also serve as a way to align the fin at installation. The centerline location of the shank is the same location of the real Patriot's fin pivot axis.

When first considering this idea, I thought the diamond orientation would be the best regarding strength. That is assuming the most strength is needed parallel to the rocket's axial centerline.




In doing research, it appears the strongest orientation would be the square.



Any thoughts?

BTW, in the fin plan views you can see a small sphere. That location is the volumetric centroid of the fin, which would likely be close to the CG of the fin.

Greg

 

[Incongruent]

How do you plan on keeping the fin connected firmly to the rocket after attaching? I was thinking of a 1/32 in plywood slot and tab, but I wasn't sure how to keep the fin attached well enough for flight.

Maybe when you push in the motor it moves something forward and that locks the fin in place, but it can be pushed back with a dowel to remove the fins?

 

[GregGleason]

Since this is a LPR bird, I think I will do a test with rubber cement first. I think a low-grade adhesive in tight tolerances should work well enough.

I would like something a little more elegant like you suggested, but for this size it is too small for me to tackle. I would try something like that if the airframe was 2.6" OD.

Greg

 

[Incongruent]

Since this is a LPR bird, I think I will do a test with rubber cement first. I think a low-grade adhesive in tight tolerances should work well enough.

I would like something a little more elegant like you suggested, but for this size it is too small for me to tackle. I would try something like that if the airframe was 2.6" OD.

Greg

Fair point.

If the rubber cement works, I might use the method on my 1/10 Estes Nike Smoke.

Since the force will be from the front and pushing back, would it be possible to angle the strut for more positive retention?(if that's the right term)

 

[GregGleason]

Since the Estes D12 is the primary motor w/ sims showing a Vmax of about 155 mph, I don't think those fins will be close to coming off. The wetted surface for the shank is a 1/4 of a square inch, which should provide enough gripping surface. If I can hold the rocket by the fin and it not come out when I hold the rocket in a horizontal attitude, I think it will be fine.

So for that reason I don't feel the need to angle them out of perpendicular to the rocket's centerline.

If the rubber cement doesn't work, then I plan to explore other adhesives.

Greg

 

[Ez2cDave]

I have an Estes Patriot #2056 that I want to make more scale in appearance. This is not a hyper-scale attempt, I am just wondering what I can do that perhaps do to make improvements to the overall look.

I bought the kit a few years ago when it was on clearance at Fry's.

View attachment 313215

Greg

Greg,

The attached files belowmay be helpful to you . . . 3 pics and a PDF file.

Dave F.