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Estes M-104 Patriot Change

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Kruegon

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About 10 years ago, I built an Estes M-104 Patriot. Time was not its friend. It's turned yellowed. And my skills were less than perfect back then. So I decided I'd build a new one. Hobby Lobby had one on clearance.

I just opened it up. THE FINS ARE DIFFERENT! And I mean inaccurately different. My original had 5 sided fins. Very resemblant to the actual Patriot, but the very leading edge was squared off where the real thing is radial. The new kit has 4 sided fins without the forward leading edge. I feel like I got screwed here.

So now I'm stuck with a decision. Do I suck it and build it with the new design fins? Do I break out the hobby knife and custom cut the old style fins? Do I crawl in the corner and say "it's not real" over and over?

I hate when they make unnecessary changes to classic kits.
 

jjhdnd

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Estes 2056? I suppose they might have gotten the wrong fin sheet in the kit. Go ahead and make your own fins. You should probably leave the leading edge square though. The stubby fins of the patriot make it difficult to keep the CP back; rounding the leading edges would only reduce stability (albeit slightly).
 

KenECoyote

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I could be wrong, but I thought I read a while back that Estes changed the fins after the original design ended up being somewhat unstable or had a lot of crashes.
 

Micromeister

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the original M-104 Patriot model wasn't that SCALE in the first place. As another poster suggested you should go ahead and make your own fins. While your at it you might want to adjust the length, add the wiring tunnels, add the boat-tail and so on and so on;)
 

samb

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I'm still confused about which Estes Patriot kit had 5-sided fins. The 18mm #2056 always had 3/32 balsa fins I believe. The 24mm X 4 Pro Series Patriot #2066 had a basswood core w/center cord ribs and card stock skins to achieve a more scale-like diamond airfoil pattern. :confused:
 
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mwtoelle

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About 10 years ago, I built an Estes M-104 Patriot. Time was not its friend. It's turned yellowed. And my skills were less than perfect back then. So I decided I'd build a new one. Hobby Lobby had one on clearance.

I just opened it up. THE FINS ARE DIFFERENT! And I mean inaccurately different. My original had 5 sided fins. Very resemblant to the actual Patriot, but the very leading edge was squared off where the real thing is radial. The new kit has 4 sided fins without the forward leading edge. I feel like I got screwed here.

So now I'm stuck with a decision. Do I suck it and build it with the new design fins? Do I break out the hobby knife and custom cut the old style fins? Do I crawl in the corner and say "it's not real" over and over?

I hate when they make unnecessary changes to classic kits.
I'm still confused about which Estes Patriot kit had 5-sided fins. The 18mm #2056 always had 3/32 balsa fins I believe. The 24mm X 4 Pro Series Patriot #2066 had a basswood core w/center cord ribs and card stock skins to achieve a more scale-like diamond airfoil pattern. :confused:
The Estes Patriot (MIM-104) kits that had a scale fin pattern are the Mini-Patriot (0896) and the Pro-Series Patriot (2066). The early 1990s vintage 2056 that I have was supplied with the same four-sided fin as shown above. Except for the Pro-Series Patriot, the scale qualities of the various Patriot kits offered in the hobby leave a bit to be desired in the way of scale details.
 

Kruegon

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Never built the pro series, though it's on the list. I have the Mini Patriot ready for paint now. My old Patriot had fins that matched the images. The new one matches the facecard image. I will say, the first one came from a Walmart blister pack, the new one comes from a bag.
 

Kruegon

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the original M-104 Patriot model wasn't that SCALE in the first place. As another poster suggested you should go ahead and make your own fins. While your at it you might want to adjust the length, add the wiring tunnels, add the boat-tail and so on and so on;)
Love the idea, but would defeat the purpose. I'm in the process of building every single scale/semi-scale kit Estes has ever produced. Ambitious, yes. Impossible, maybe. Am I daunted by this, no.
 

samb

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Dug up something interesting...

...

"In the paint and decal instructions the leading edge tip of the fins are cropped and squared. This illustration is probably left over from the old North Coast kit.
Not a big deal, just interesting."

Thanks Ken, I think I got it. I was confused by the reference to the 5th side. I think it's much less pronounced on the example at the Air and Space Museum.

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?8337-Patriot-Missile-Picture&p=72282#post72282

Love the idea, but would defeat the purpose. I'm in the process of building every single scale/semi-scale kit Estes has ever produced. Ambitious, yes. Impossible, maybe. Am I daunted by this, no.
Dauntless !! I think your choices are to build the current #2056 as is or take a couple of light swipes with a sanding block to those offensive fins. Or look for one of the those vintage Walmart specials on ebay. :)
 
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mwtoelle

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About 10 years ago, I built an Estes M-104 Patriot. Time was not its friend. It's turned yellowed. And my skills were less than perfect back then. So I decided I'd build a new one. Hobby Lobby had one on clearance.

I just opened it up. THE FINS ARE DIFFERENT! And I mean inaccurately different. My original had 5 sided fins. Very resemblant to the actual Patriot, but the very leading edge was squared off where the real thing is radial. The new kit has 4 sided fins without the forward leading edge. I feel like I got screwed here.

So now I'm stuck with a decision. Do I suck it and build it with the new design fins? Do I break out the hobby knife and custom cut the old style fins? Do I crawl in the corner and say "it's not real" over and over?

I hate when they make unnecessary changes to classic kits.
I'm still confused about which Estes Patriot kit had 5-sided fins. The 18mm #2056 always had 3/32 balsa fins I believe. The 24mm X 4 Pro Series Patriot #2066 had a basswood core w/center cord ribs and card stock skins to achieve a more scale-like diamond airfoil pattern. :confused:
The Estes Patriot (MIM-104) kits that had a scale fin pattern are the Mini-Patriot (0896) and the Pro-Series Patriot (2066). The early 1990s vintage 2056 that I have was supplied with the same four-sided fin as shown above. Except for the Pro-Series Patriot, the scale qualities of the various Patriot kits offered in the hobby leave a bit to be desired in the way of scale details.
 

Micromeister

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Love the idea, but would defeat the purpose. I'm in the process of building every single scale/semi-scale kit Estes has ever produced. Ambitious, yes. Impossible, maybe. Am I daunted by this, no.
That is a very nice ambition; But doesn't alter or answer the question; Are you a Scale Modeler or an Estes Kit builder?

That said: Lets be honest with ourselves; With the possible exception of the 1970's Saturn-V, Saturn-1B, Mercury-Redstone & later Little Joe-II which were much closer to scale then any of the more current offerings, Estes has not produced a single "Scale" model kit. Even those Iconic 70's models were only starting points for scale models. They are ALL, every one including the 70's, Semi-Scale at best and an approximate outline is many cases.
That's not to say the Estes "Kit" Semi-Scale model kits aren't worth building but we shouldn't refer to them as scale without adding or altering much of what came in the package.
To be sure the M-104 Patroit kits were/are great starting points to produce scale models but they are exactly that a "Starting Point".

With a great deal of added work my daughter built and flew a M-104 Patroit with many of the things mentioned earlier at earned her a 1st Place win in A division Sport Scale at an ECRM-29, 1991 East Coast Regional Meet contest but didn't break the top 20 at the Naram in A division the same year.

All that to say; If your going to be building Scale models then any Kit that you buy will need to be researched and adjusted and/or altered to make it closer to a Scale Model of a real prototype. Everything else are simply something that looks like something that might have been a real world Rocket or Missile.

Actually if you talk to any of the kit designers at just about any of the Mod-Roc producing companies, they well tell you that the kits are either semi-scale or outline simulations of the actual prototype while encouraging the modeler to add or modify the kit to increase accuracy and add to their scale-like quaility.
I'm not saying these things to discourage but to encourage you to make the necessary modification to the Estes kits your building to make them Scale like rather then just an outline of the prototype rocket. You have a lot of models to build for sure, Altering them to more closely fit the real world model is a good thing:)
We are not bound to build any kit strictly by or with the kit instructions or to match the kit panel artwork for it to be a good build as intended by the kit designer.

An added bonus of researching a Kit semi-scale model is you'll also lean a bunch of the history behind the real world rocket or missile.
Stuff that really needs to be passed on to the next generation of rocketeers.

649a01-sm_Kathleen's Patriot Missile 10th Scale(185dpi)(ECRM-29)_05-91.jpg
 
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Kruegon

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Strictly speaking, I am both. The ambitious task I have set is specific to the Estes kits. When physics allows, I build all my scratch built kits to scale. Peter Alway is a great help in this. As in G. Harry Stine. The down side is that I can't find all the offerings in scale drawings. For those that I can, I collect them. And each build, scratch or kit, puts me closer to an actual scale item.

For the Estes builds, these will remain in original form. Little to no mods whatsoever. I figure I can properly build and paint 1 to 2 kits a month without my wife getting pissed off. 3 or 4 if they are the E2X versions. Maybe more. The "scale" build pile is already rising. I'm two short of the X-Prize kits. And a few may turn out to be impossible. The SCUD for instance. Can't clone it. No one is reproducing the nose cone. Unless I can convince someone to sell the nose cones, there's two kits that won't happen.
 

dhbarr

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Truax's B/C/Hussein should have enough detail to match the Estes face card from a turned down cone. Not sure I'm helping... :)
 

Micromeister

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Strictly speaking, I am both. The ambitious task I have set is specific to the Estes kits. When physics allows, I build all my scratch built kits to scale. Peter Alway is a great help in this. As in G. Harry Stine. The down side is that I can't find all the offerings in scale drawings. For those that I can, I collect them. And each build, scratch or kit, puts me closer to an actual scale item.

For the Estes builds, these will remain in original form. Little to no mods whatsoever. I figure I can properly build and paint 1 to 2 kits a month without my wife getting pissed off. 3 or 4 if they are the E2X versions. Maybe more. The "scale" build pile is already rising. I'm two short of the X-Prize kits. And a few may turn out to be impossible. The SCUD for instance. Can't clone it. No one is reproducing the nose cone. Unless I can convince someone to sell the nose cones, there's two kits that won't happen.
The SCUD is a simple enough rocket to be scratch built with almost no trouble at all. If you can pick up an Estes Kit # 1981 D.A.R.T. it is I believe that same Scud nose cone. if not it makes a perfect substitute.
 

Kruegon

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The SCUD is a simple enough rocket to be scratch built with almost no trouble at all. If you can pick up an Estes Kit # 1981 D.A.R.T. it is I believe that same Scud nose cone. if not it makes a perfect substitute.
It is exactly the same nose cone. I cannot find either kit. I do believe the MX Missile also shares the same nose cone.
 

adrian

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The Estes Patriot (MIM-104) kits that had a scale fin pattern are the Mini-Patriot (0896) and the Pro-Series Patriot (2066). The early 1990s vintage 2056 that I have was supplied with the same four-sided fin as shown above. Except for the Pro-Series Patriot, the scale qualities of the various Patriot kits offered in the hobby leave a bit to be desired in the way of scale details.
EST 2056 seems to have had variable fins. In 1993 it did have the more accurate scale fin:
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/93est030.html

But if you think a simple four-sided fin is bad, you probably don't want to see the 1993 Patriot Starter Set, at least not if you've just eaten lunch and want to keep it down:
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/93est004.html

One year earlier it was a different story. Both the Patriot starter set and the model by itself, also listed as 2056, had the basic 4-sided fin:
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes92/92est14.html
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes92/92est38.html

And in fact, that 1992 starter set was my introduction into model rocketry. It was in the local model shop, there was an empty field near where I lived, so I saw it as my duty to introduce them to each other. :lol:
 

Kruegon

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Ok that starter set is horrendous. Wtf were they thinking?
 

Kruegon

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The annoying and sad part is, if I'm ever going to reach my goal, I'll need one of those…
 

mwtoelle

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I would consider it scale-like or non-scale and just skip it. If you really want some fun, try to obtain the SK-6 starter set from the 66 catalog with the K-11 WAC Corporal kit and the wooden base Electro Launch.
 

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I have one of those, got it in a garage sale bundle. Pretty sure it's the four plastic fin, really nonscale fin version. Other than missing the plastic motor retainer it's in good shape. I have no intention to fly it so you can have it for the price of shipping. I'll get you a picture of it when I get home from my trip.
 

Kruegon

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I have one of those, got it in a garage sale bundle. Pretty sure it's the four plastic fin, really nonscale fin version. Other than missing the plastic motor retainer it's in good shape. I have no intention to fly it so you can have it for the price of shipping. I'll get you a picture of it when I get home from my trip.
Thanks. I would appreciate it. Every rocket is one step closer to the goal.
 
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