Estes: m-104 Patriot and hi-Flier

Discussion in 'Product and Vendor Reviews' started by vdotmatrix, Jul 16, 2010.

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  1. Jul 16, 2010 #1

    vdotmatrix

    vdotmatrix

    vdotmatrix

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    I am building these to concurrently and don't have any real issues but i did incorporate Kevlar in to the shockcord system other than the following:

    Patriot:

    I was wondering WHY the instructions do not have you "round" the leading edges and leave the fins square?

    Patriot & Hi-flier: fins don't touch the pad and only the motor retaining clip; does this add weakness to the motor mount over time?
     
  2. Jul 16, 2010 #2

    mkmilion

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    The fins or the motor retaining hook are not suppose to touch the pad. If you look in the launch instructions; there should be a suggested stand-off distance. You create this by using masking tape. If it doesn't have one then make should you have adequate gap. If acquired burnt fins, very low altitudes, or static launches because I did not.

    As for your your patriot fins; do as you wish. It won't hurt it. It'll help streamline a bit. I do understand your confusion. Some Estes Industries kit instructions tell you to do it, don't say any thing about it, or suggest it as optional. So I say go for it!

    I hope this helps.

    Later, later
     
  3. Jul 16, 2010 #3

    vdotmatrix

    vdotmatrix

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  4. Jul 16, 2010 #4

    mkmilion

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    I just built an Estes StormCaster and the engine mount tube is flush with the body tube. It's different, but I don't think it negatively affects the model.
     
  5. Aug 6, 2010 #5

    vdotmatrix

    vdotmatrix

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    I was able to find a place to launch here in new hampshire, and we fired off the high flier, blue ninja and patriot missle.....The high flier had a catastrophic corkscrewing failure at launch....WHOA!!!

    The Blue ninja and patriot flew beauitfully!



     
  6. Aug 7, 2010 #6

    mkmilion

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    What motor did you have in the Hi-Flier? Mine just got ran over by traffic. On to the Wizard.
     
  7. Aug 7, 2010 #7

    vdotmatrix

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    yeah, it was a little windy but we were desparate for a launch chompin on the bit for so long.

    I used a C5-6, I think, it was over powered and bad ju-ju got it in a death spiral riht from launch..... the fins were built straight, there were no obvious defects that would affect the flight in this catastrophic manner.

    This thing made huge spirals about 50 ft if that above the ground and then the nose cone augered in about 10 inches into the grass/soil...and deployed the recovery system..

    could that have killed someone? Would my NAR insurance covered being gored by a high flier? We used the highest recommended motor by estes and followed the safety rules....i think.

    LOL
     
  8. Aug 7, 2010 #8

    mkmilion

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    C6-7 do make for stability issues. I'm afraid I've never had a rocket spiral so I hope someone else chimes in, but I don't think it would have caused a fatality.

    I once had once launched an E and got burned by the thrust flame. I didn't realize I grabbed the wrong controller. It hurt quite a bit. I'm sure HPR's are a bit to worry about though. I'm always stay alert when a launch is chaotic.

    I highly recommend calling Estes and letting them know how it all went down.

    As for NAR liability insurance I can't help you there either. I've never been a member. Hence the sub-title, recluse rocketeer.
     
  9. Aug 9, 2010 #9

    shreadvector

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    EVERYONE who has had an unstable Hi-Flyer flight MUST contact Estes and report it.

    I have observed an almost 100% instability when using C motors.

    They will replace your rocket and motor (usually with a full pack of motors).

    And, if enough people report the problem, they will correct the design flaw.
     
  10. Aug 9, 2010 #10

    dwmzmm

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    The Hi-Flyer is always unstable on C engines. It's a poorly designed model. The body length needs to be longer with a little nose weight to solve this. I always dread when I see a rocketeer preparing to launch these.....
     
  11. Aug 9, 2010 #11

    maricopasem

    maricopasem

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    I had a similarly bad experience, but I don't have any photos to document it. Will Estes still replace it?
     
  12. Aug 9, 2010 #12

    shreadvector

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    Call them or e-mail them. They will answer on behalf of Estes. We can only speculate on what their response will be. But, they MUST be made aware of the problem from a diverse cross section of rocket flyers.
     
  13. Aug 10, 2010 #13

    vdotmatrix

    vdotmatrix

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    rocket video

    Estes Hi-flier
     
  14. Aug 26, 2010 #14

    vdotmatrix

    vdotmatrix

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    I recieved a replacement Hi-flier and a package of C6-5 motors. I included a few thread from this discussion about the hi-flier and the questionable reputation this model has. I asked if it was still safe to fly the Hi-flier with the designated Estes motors and the following was the response. Sooooo, i guess we are good to go somehow?

    WEBCS
    to me

    show details 20 Aug (6 days ago)


    I watched one fly Wednesday night on a C6-5, with our R&D guy and the Head of Marketing; it went straight as an arrow. We have only had two people to ever contact us regarding this kit and it has on the product line since 2003.



    Christine

    Estes-Cox Customer Service
     
  15. Aug 26, 2010 #15

    shreadvector

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    Which is why I keep telling people to contact the manufacturer when there is a problem. There have been dozens of reports on this and other forums of unstable Hi-Flyers. Yet, it seems that people don't want to contact Estes and tell them about it. Without feedback, they will never fix the problem.

    Read the flight reports here: http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/est_hiflier.shtml

    So, PLEASE can everyone who has had an unstable flight of one of these report that fact to Estes? Please? I have not bought one, but as RSO of our launches, I've seen dozens of them fly unstable with B and C motors and we will not allow them to fly anymore with a B or C motor without nose weight.


    Thanks.
     
  16. Sep 7, 2010 #16

    CharlaineC

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    I received this same email when mine went unstable on a c6-5 i was also told i must have built it wrong. i never received a replacement
     
  17. Sep 10, 2010 #17

    El Cheapo

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    Make sure to ad nose weight in the Hi-Flier as described in EMRR Review. 5.32g of weight is approximately 14 Copperhead BB's. Flew great this morning on B6-4. Was a touch early on apogee. There is no doubt in my mind it will fly on a C-motor as it swing tested beautifully on a C6-5. If my boy will let me, I'll put it up at the October SSS GHS launch. There should be plenty of people to help find it.
     
  18. Sep 16, 2010 #18

    dragon_rider10

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    Shread,

    Just to let you know I did this and got a nice letter back from Mike Fritz that they will be adding some clay noseweight to HiFlier kits with the next production run.
     
  19. Sep 16, 2010 #19

    shreadvector

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    Thank you, thanks to everyone who gives feedback to all manufacturers, and thanks to Mike Fritz and everyone else at the New Estes (or should we refer to the company in this new era as "Free Estes"?).
     
  20. Nov 26, 2011 #20

    RodRocket

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    If I build a model airplane and don't take the time to properly balance the plane, and the plane crashes, was that the fault of the manufacturer?

    What is the difference with a model rocket? Isn't it the responsibility of the builder to properly balance the rocket before launch?

    I just started a High Flier and will take the time to check the balance. Maybe I should go through all my builds and check them. Got into a building frenzy and now should do the right thing and get them properly set up and balanced for launch.

    See ya,
    Rod
     
  21. Nov 27, 2011 #21

    Johnny1Eye

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    With larger rockets, I would say yes. With the Estes rockets, most people buying/flying them would have no idea it needed to be done.
     
  22. Jan 20, 2012 #22

    UrbanKnight

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    Just an update. My class just received a 12 pack of Hi-Fliers and they did not include any nose weight. It's possible that I just got 2+ year old stock, but they're still out there this way.

    I found this thread because I thought I recalled references to Hi-Fliers going unstable. I'm not too concerned for our school launch, since we'll be using A8-3 motors, but I want to know what warnings and suggestions to give the kids before they take their rockets home and potentially to a club launch.
     
  23. Jan 20, 2012 #23

    Fe Dude

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    I slightly modified mine. I left off the motor hook, and clipped the root edge of the fin at a diagonal to the last angle on the tip cord. I then mounted the bottom of the new root edge flush with the bottom of the tube.

    No nose weight, and it flies perfectly. Could it be that the motor hook adds just enough weight to the tail end to cause it to be marginally stable?
     
  24. Feb 9, 2012 #24

    UrbanKnight

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    I would believe that. I just string tested mine and only needed about 1g to get it to fly straight on a C6-5 with no problem.


    It seems like the general consensus around here is that RTF, E2X, and should be able to fly without any intermediate calculations or testing. Estes claims that the Hi-Flier works with up to a C6-5 motor, the kit doesn't include any weight, and the list of required materials does not include weight either. However, I've noticed that some manufacturers have a disclaimer that all of their kits should be balance tested before flying. My take? Estes would be doing themselves a favor by just lengthening the body tube and/or changing the packaging to say it flies on As and Bs only. Including weight or taking out the engine hook would work too, but would require rewriting the instructions.
     
  25. Feb 23, 2012 #25

    RadioFlyer

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    I have a Hi-Flier that we use on A-8-3 engines. We've been thinking about sending it up with C's when the weather is REALLY calm. How much weight are they recommending in the nose?
     
  26. Feb 23, 2012 #26

    UrbanKnight

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    As posted above, I only needed 1g, but given the nature of its construction and the variances found among builders, it depends. fwiw I didn't use any wood filler on this model and avoided overbuilding (too much glue), but did use 3 layers of white glue for the fillets.
     
  27. Feb 26, 2012 #27

    SteveF

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    I simmed the hi-flyer in rocksim when I built one a couple years ago and it was marginally stable/unstable with the c motors - I used fishing sinkers weighing about the same weight - just a little over 5 grams - rocksim showed that as stable
     

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