The white or the black tip?
Estes ignitors are a PITA
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OC-Patrick
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...same here - most likely the non-startech ignitors. I don't really pay attention - just plug in the ones from the motor blister pack.
The problem with igniters is that it is a very fact that we do not all use the same launch system. Firing an Estes igniter 4 AA batteries is much different than firing one on a Wilson FX With a 12V battery.
It hard for me to believe the the failures with the white tip igniters are technique related. It is also hard for me to believe anyone had a 80-90% success rate with the white tip Estes igniters that were before the Startechs because the failure rate was so high that Estes discontinued them. I have seen them fail regularly with our most experienced fliers. This happened to the point that I offered to dip them for free to avoid the failures.
Failure because of technique is usually when the wires touch or the wire breaks which was not the case in my experience with the white tips. They just failed to ignite.
I've had near perfect experience with Estes igniters - - - until the last club launch event. I was trying to fire an E12, and pushing in the plastic plug was breaking the nichrome. Twice. No problem with the 18mm motors. The bigger nozzle throat was giving me fits.
Hans.
Hans.
Rocketjunkie
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No body has mentioned that occasionally an Estes motor will have nozzle clay covering the BP. Nothing will light it then. When clustering I always look and make sure I can see black before installing the motor in the rocket and installing the starter. If covered, scraping with a small drill bit will expose the BP.
Which Estes igniters? They are not all the same.
Yup. No technique will light that without some boring.
BEC
Well-Known Member
Yes, this!
I also try to remember to check for this when putting together multi stagers, as no sustainer ignition is hard on the sustainer....
Otherwise I'm in the "I usually don't have problems with them, even the yellow-tipped ones that are more frequently a problem." Shorted leads can happen to any of the three versions of this igniter (or any other without insulated leads). And they all work best if you're sure the tip is against the propellant (don't bend the leads over until AFTER putting in the plug or wadding ball or whatever your favorite retention method is helps quite a bit).
First 2 were the newer grey tipped ones. The one that ended up working - - well I'm not sure which type it was, as it had a heavy coat of ProCast. That maybe helped hold it together. Likely was originally a white tip.
Hans.
The grey tipped are the new ones or the ones (usually black) prior to the white ones. The new ones (grey) are Startech or 2303 and work fine.
I keep asking which ones because the type makes a huge difference.
It the past 10 years, Estes has made 4 different igniters:
- The old black ones (Solar Igniters or 2301) has a black pyrogen on them that was very reliable.
- The new Solar Starters or 2302 are the ones people say did not work. They had a white or cream colored “pyrogen”.
- Startech or 2303 which have a grey pyrogen. They also work fine.
- Sonic Igniters which came with their composite motors. I have not used them much but they were reported less reliable also.
BEC
Well-Known Member
The thing about the Sonics is that they were designed to work with the PSII controller, so 9V (6 C-cells), and especially on the White Lightning Estes/Aerotech motors they simply burnt too quickly (and with not enough heat) when used on a 12V club system. For Blue Thunder or Fast Jack, they seem pretty reliable, and I've been known to give them to TARC folks who've had misfires with supplied Aerotech igniters....so I know that they work for some 24/40 reloads as well.
I've had very good success with the grey tip igniters. This was just operator error in that the plastic plug was separating the tip when used with the large nozzle. It has almost never happened before, this was perhaps because it was 38degF and my fingers were less than nimble.
But I do wonder if ProCast adds a little mechanical durability to them.
Hans.
It will add a little, but they can still break.
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White tip.#2 on the list you posted later in the discussion.
I suspect there is something different other than your technique. There is a reason, poor reliability, that Estes discontinued them so close to their release.
The blanks are esttentially the same. The only difference is the pyrogen.
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Not sure. I probably went through about fifty with two or three misfires.
That is definitely an anomaly. I have seen probably 400-500 of them used, and no one has had that rate of success.
Unless covered in ProCast!
It'll light dirt.
Hans.
It'll light dirt.
Hans.
Thank you for mentioning this. I bought a bunch of these when they were being closed out for pennies on the dollar, figuring to use them as backups for the Aerotech startes which have been less than reliable for me in small motors. (I wasn't actually expecting these to be more reliable than Aerotechs, I just figured for the low price, I could throw three or four at a motor without burning the price of a Wildman or QuickBurst, or a Pro-cast dipped MJG.) Since I'm heavy in Blue Thunder reloads at the moment - especially 24/40s - maybe I'll try burning through the Sonics when I'm flying single-motor BT motors, especially those 24/40s.
ProCast is good stuff, but I think dirt ignition belongs to ClF3:
"It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water —with which it reacts explosively."
- John D. Clark, Ignition!
Tom Flint
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People always complain about Estes black powder motor igniters but I find them to be at least 99.5 percent reliable. I find no difference in reliability from black tip to white to gray tipped ones, they all work equally well in my usage. I use the old "ball of wadding then a piece of masking tape" method of installation because when the plastic plugs first came out I tried them and found that the reliability suffered noticeably. Also I've never used those cheesy Estes launch controllers with AA batteries. I have one controller that clips onto a car battery and another with a 4 cell 2800mah LiPo. I'm shocked to hear that people buy fancy igniters that cost a significant percentage of the cost of the motor to light a black powder motor. The only exception to this is for clustering. I do not use these igniters for clustering because they are prone to breakage and failure if there is a lot of twisting or manhandling required after the igniter is installed in the motor, and it's nearly impossible to hook up multiple ones at the same time without damaging them.
OK, here's my 2 cents: I've recently been taking all my new Estes igniters that come with the motors and smear a small amount of Medium Gap-Filling Cyanoacrylate on the pyrogen then dip it into some black powder (obtained from a crushed A10-0T, then crushed to powder with a mortor-and-pestle).
The CA isn't burning but the BP is definitely adding "pizazz" and so far I've had 100% success AND the CA sticks enough to keep the igniter together and I've been re-using my igniters by repeating the CA-n-BP treatment which actually have a faster ignition with the 2nd use. Most of those "2nd use" igniters have been used a 3rd time now - even with D12-3's/5's.
So far, surprisingly this method is working noticeably BETTER than use of Nitrocellulose fingernail polish alone or the fingernail polish + Black Powder combination. But, I like messing around doing little crafty things like that which may be not for everyone.
That's my 2 Centavos -PTH
The CA isn't burning but the BP is definitely adding "pizazz" and so far I've had 100% success AND the CA sticks enough to keep the igniter together and I've been re-using my igniters by repeating the CA-n-BP treatment which actually have a faster ignition with the 2nd use. Most of those "2nd use" igniters have been used a 3rd time now - even with D12-3's/5's.
So far, surprisingly this method is working noticeably BETTER than use of Nitrocellulose fingernail polish alone or the fingernail polish + Black Powder combination. But, I like messing around doing little crafty things like that which may be not for everyone.
That's my 2 Centavos -PTH
I used to have a 25% failure rate even with my 12v battery. Most had a damaged bridge wire. At first I thought it was too high of a current and burned the nichrome too quickly but then I began to dip them in Hot Shot Conductive. Now the failure rate is near 0 with only the issue you mentioned above.
That is not really an Estes igniter any more.
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I have made two adjustments to using Estes igniters and I never have any issues since.
First, dip them in Testor's silver paint. The aluminum particles in the paint will ignite immediately and flair significantly more than a standard igniter. If I REALLY want to make sure they ignite (e.g., for clusters), I also drop a few grains of BP on the paint after I dip the igniter. You won't believe the flair-up (I posted videos of my tests on a thread on TRF a couple of years back).
Second, I make sure I use the right sized plastic plug. It's not intuitive, because the nozzle throat size is completely unrelated to the motor size. I have a cheat sheet on the lid of the box that holds the BP motors. Cheat sheet attached.
First, dip them in Testor's silver paint. The aluminum particles in the paint will ignite immediately and flair significantly more than a standard igniter. If I REALLY want to make sure they ignite (e.g., for clusters), I also drop a few grains of BP on the paint after I dip the igniter. You won't believe the flair-up (I posted videos of my tests on a thread on TRF a couple of years back).
Second, I make sure I use the right sized plastic plug. It's not intuitive, because the nozzle throat size is completely unrelated to the motor size. I have a cheat sheet on the lid of the box that holds the BP motors. Cheat sheet attached.
A successful field-expedient alternative I've used with Estes items is to dump a half-a-match-head volume of BP (left over from a high-power reload) into the nozzle, then insert starter and plastic plug. If the Estes starter goes off, the motor WILL ignite unless it's one of those motors with the inadvertent clay coating on the inside of the nozzle. Even then, if the clay doesn't completely cover the internal "dimple" of propellant, it is probably going to work.
I've told some littleuns that it's Magic Dust. Tinkerbell used it to fly, too.
For Cub Scout launches and the like, it may be easier than coating the heads of a few dozen starters during the launch. If you have enough starters the night before, that's different.
If you do not have any Magic Dust from a reloadable motor and cannot get it anywhere, you certainly do NOT want to sacrifice a BP booster motor, and do NOT slice down the side and peel off the casing (because that may take time and several slices and you could get a nasty paper cut) and do NOT remove the clay nozzle and do NOT crush the propellant between two pieces of hardwood that won't cause ignition and do NOT collect that material and use it.
Because that would be illegal and wrong.
Going to bed in a minnit. G'night.
I've told some littleuns that it's Magic Dust. Tinkerbell used it to fly, too.
For Cub Scout launches and the like, it may be easier than coating the heads of a few dozen starters during the launch. If you have enough starters the night before, that's different.
If you do not have any Magic Dust from a reloadable motor and cannot get it anywhere, you certainly do NOT want to sacrifice a BP booster motor, and do NOT slice down the side and peel off the casing (because that may take time and several slices and you could get a nasty paper cut) and do NOT remove the clay nozzle and do NOT crush the propellant between two pieces of hardwood that won't cause ignition and do NOT collect that material and use it.
Because that would be illegal and wrong.
Going to bed in a minnit. G'night.
I keep wondering how many of the various age igniters are on vendor's shelves. I just opened a pack of C6-0 and found the white tip igniters. Hmm. After a little while, they turned black. Amazing how boron will do that.
Hans.
Hans.
BEC
Well-Known Member
This is indeed important. And for newbies, one also has to make sure that the little bit that connects the plugs together in the molding is also removed, so that the blunt end of the plug is actually what is pressed into the motor. If the connecting bit is left on the plug won't go in far enough and if you try to force it, that will break the igniter's bridge wire. Otherwise it is really uncommon in my experience to have the bridge wire broken using the correct plug.
I just cut the plug color listing out of the Estes motor instructions (there's a set in EVERY package) and tape that to my plug container or other convenient place. But having the actual colors on the cheat sheet is useful. I have a big one that was posted here some time ago that I put on the table with the flight cards at every launch I run.
@DaHabes interesting that you have B8s on your sheet. They have been gone a loooonnnng time. Also, E12s no longer use the yellow plug. They come with black plugs now...and that's what current instructions call out.
Also, the little orange plugs are also used in 1/4A3 and 1/2A3 motors, and the yellow plug is also used in 1/2A6 motors (18mm 1/2As).
For all, here's a quick shot of current motor instructions. This comes in every pack of motors. It covers much of what has been discussed in this thread (except ProCast and other "enhancements").
I will add that ProCast has made my Solar Starters (the straw/yellow colored ones) essentially 100% reliable. But as I noted previously, I didn't have a big failure rate before.
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Orange: 1/4A3, 1/2A3, A3
Green: A10
Yellow: 1/2A6, A8, B4
Pink: B6, C6
Blue: C5
Black: C11, E12
White: D12 and I think E16/F15? Maybe?
If you handle a lot of 2-, 3-, or 4-packs, you’ll learn to recognize them. Not sure how you’d learn that with the bulk packs or letting them roll around your range box. But whatever the reason, there’s another option.
Wadding: All of the above.
Green: A10
Yellow: 1/2A6, A8, B4
Pink: B6, C6
Blue: C5
Black: C11, E12
White: D12 and I think E16/F15? Maybe?
If you handle a lot of 2-, 3-, or 4-packs, you’ll learn to recognize them. Not sure how you’d learn that with the bulk packs or letting them roll around your range box. But whatever the reason, there’s another option.
Wadding: All of the above.
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