Estes ignitors are a PITA

[DigBaddy]

No, it's what cert rocket to get!

 

[techrat]

Silly Rabbit, certs don't come with rockets!

 

[heada]

I think think the igniters from electricmatch are a better product. Long leads so clustering is super easy. No need to dip in a secondary pyrogen. Known specs (all-fire, no-fire, resistance, etc.) As low as $0.60 each

 

[neil_w]

I think think the igniters from electricmatch are a better product. Long leads so clustering is super easy. No need to dip in a secondary pyrogen. Known specs (all-fire, no-fire, resistance, etc.) As low as $0.60 each

Although I have never bought those, I would tend to agree with that if you're purchasing igniters separately. The point is that if you want to use the igniters that come with the motors, they can and do work fine if you use them correctly. With the possible exception of clustering.

 

[techrat]

The point is that if you want to use the igniters that come with the motors, they can and do work fine if you use them correctly. With the possible exception of clustering.

Yes.... yes.... I'm going to purchase some of these ematches after all, because I am concerned about clustering, as that's clearly in my future (Not just Totally Tubular (see build thread)), but I've now got a Rocketarium Kit of KSR-420 which has a 3, 18mm cluster, so, I've got to get all 3 motors to ignite or I get a loopy rocket flight.

 

[dpower]

So, what I hear from here and other places is this: the older (black) ignitors were dipped in pyrogen and were generally BETTER.

The newer (white) ignitors are nichrome wire with a bit of some kind of compound to protect the wire, but it doesn't do much, just melts away as the wire heats up, and the wire sets off the motor, not the wire setting off the covering which sets off the motor.

Current solutions to this are: Testors silver metalic paint or clear nail polish or pyrogen. I will need to test each of these when I get time. I have the paint, but need to hit a store to find nail polish, and as for the pyrogen, that's likely a special order.

Solar Igniters (part #2301) which had very energetic black pyrogen, first came out in the 1970s. They were renamed Solar Starters (part #2302), and the pyrogen was replaced with a translucent non-energetic coating a few years ago. StarTech starters (part #2303) were introduced in 2021, with a new energetic gray coating.

2301 - introduced in 1972 for use with the 6v Solar controller, good
2302 - introduced in 2014, bad
2303 - introduced in 2021, good

 

[bjphoenix]

I thought sanding is the worst thing about model rocketry

I have 6 waiting to be painted and several new spray cans that don't work, so I'll vote for painting being the worst thing about building rockets.

 

[KenECoyote]

Club clips are sometimes rusted from the occasional rain, dew and/or humid environment, so I usually have an Emery board, nail file or sanding pad with me in my fanny pack (don't judge me! ).

 

[dpower]

The pyrogen tipped Solar Igniters (2301) came in at least 2 different package types, yellow paper when first introduced, and sometime later plastic. The clear-tipped Solar Starters (2302) came in a similar package, and the new StarTech (2303) have completely new graphics:

 

[prfesser]

The motor starters of the 60s and 70s were a long strip of nichrome with a short coating of pyrogen every 2-3". You snipped the nichrome between the pyrogen bits, bent the starter in half, inserted into the nozzle, and pushed a small wad of recovery wadding into the nozzle.

A nice thing about these starters was that the ends of the wire were on opposite sides of the nozzle, so it was easier to avoid wire shorting against itself. One downside was that a decent 6v lantern battery, or four fresh D cells, or a 12v battery was needed for fast ignition.

Those were followed by Solar Igniters that could be fired with four AA cells.

 

[RokitFlyr]

What ?.....PYROGEN ?........ Heck, when I started, there was no such thing. We used a bare piece of nichrome wire. You formed a small coil around the tip of a ballpoint pen or tooth pick. Insert into the motor being carefull the wire does not touch and short. Add a ball of wadding tamped in with the pen. Good to go! Sometimes had to hold the button a few seconds depending on the battery condition. A 6v lantern batt. was the norm.

Most failures I see now are operator error more than anything. Igniter not in contact with the propellent, or shorted.
The wire came as a piece about 6" long with the motors shipped in a blue cardboard tube !

 

[prfesser]

What ?.....PYROGEN ?........ Heck, when I started, there was no such thing. We used a bare piece of nichrome wire. You formed a small coil around the tip of a ballpoint pen or tooth pick. Insert into the motor being carefull the wire does not touch and short. Add a ball of wadding tamped in with the pen. Good to go! Sometimes had to hold the button a few seconds depending on the battery condition. A 6v lantern batt. was the norm.

Most failures I see now are operator error more than anything. Igniter not in contact with the propellent, or shorted.
The wire came as a piece about 6" long with the motors shipped in a blue cardboard tube !

Yes, I recall that method described in one of the Estes publications. And the blue tube, for which you could even buy a nose cone!

 

[JimByrne]

I noticed several mentions of dirty or damaged club clips---maybe some of you should volunteer to help clean & maintain the club equipment. Two of us build, provide, clean & maintain our clubs launch equipment. We can always use help with maintenance, setup & teardown of club equipment. I am sure this applies to other clubs.

 

[dpower]

I noticed several mentions of dirty or damaged club clips---maybe some of you should volunteer to help clean & maintain the club equipment. Two of us build, provide, clean & maintain our clubs launch equipment. We can always use help with maintenance, setup & teardown of club equipment. I am sure this applies to other clubs.

It sure does!

(I clean all the clips at the start of every club launch I’m able to attend, and replace them as they wear out, using solid copper marine-grade clips. They still get gunked up, of course, but clean up well with small wire brushes. I rarely see others cleaning them, despite the brushes I donate and leave by the pads.)

 

[bjphoenix]

It sure does!

(I clean all the clips at the start of every club launch I’m able to attend, and replace them as they wear out, using solid copper marine-grade clips. They still get gunked up, of course, but clean up well with small wire brushes. I rarely see others cleaning them, despite the brushes I donate and leave by the pads.)

When I started they had special clips with flat ends so they were easy to clean with a piece of sandpaper. The launch systems I've used at club launches all have the average alligator clips. Sometimes they are a little tricky to get to clamp on a small diameter igniter wire, and I don't know how you would effectively clean one down into the little crevaces at the bottoms of the teeth.

 

[smstachwick]

I've got my own installation method that works pretty well.

1. (Optional) Remove the paper from the leads. You can just slide it off the ends.
2. Ensure the wires are at least parallel at the end close to the pyrogen, you don't want them touching
3. Hold the motor nozzle-up and drop the igniter in.
4. Using the same hand, I rest my index finger on the tips of the wire to hold it in place and ensure it remains in contact with the propellant.
5. With the other hand, I grab the plug and press it in place. Between the wires or off to the side are both acceptable.
6. If using a retention cap, thread the wires through the hole.
7. Install the motor in the rocket.

If I'm friction-fitting I can just do this with the motor already in the rocket, either holding it as described or by standing the rocket nose-down on my range table.

All that should be done pretty gently, too. You don't want to snap the bridge wire, crack the pyrogen, or make the wires touch.

If you do all this correctly, you can be reasonably certain that the igniter will fire both itself and the motor. If you do have issues, you likely didn't do it correctly, have issues with the ignition system, have clay contaminating the surface of the propellant, or have an igniter bridge wire that's broken under the pyrogen coating (in descending order of likelihood).

 

[cbwho]

After the ignitor is plugged into the motor, I make sure to never torque/twist/rotate the wire. I think that could transfer the rotation down into the nozzle and lead to shorts.

The gray tipped ignitors are 100x better than corny ignitors.

That video is marvelous. I like the bunny ears tip. I'll do that from now on.

 

[ed_w]

Yes.... yes.... I'm going to purchase some of these ematches after all, because I am concerned about clustering, as that's clearly in my future (Not just Totally Tubular (see build thread)), but I've now got a Rocketarium Kit of KSR-420 which has a 3, 18mm cluster, so, I've got to get all 3 motors to ignite or I get a loopy rocket flight.

We launched my wife's three cluster rocket on B6-4's with Estes igniters last fall without any problem. All motors lit and the rocket flew great. it's very important that the clips are clean, however. Also, that none of the leads are shorted anywhere.

Note that clips get dirty pretty quickly. It's a good idea to have something with you to clean the clips...even an emory board will help. You don't have to clean every nook and cranny, just enough so that there's an electrical connection to the igniter wire.

 

[KenECoyote]

I noticed several mentions of dirty or damaged club clips---maybe some of you should volunteer to help clean & maintain the club equipment. Two of us build, provide, clean & maintain our clubs launch equipment. We can always use help with maintenance, setup & teardown of club equipment. I am sure this applies to other clubs.

Good reminder!

I have once before I took a hiatus (what happened below) and I will report it as well as volunteer if I can next time.

Past story:
The LP rack clips were pretty beat and rusted, so at the last launch for the year, I volunteered to take all of them and fix them free of charge. I was given the leads which were disconnected. I paid for new high quality clips myself (stainless steel I believe) and proceeded to replace all ~24 clips and left them for the club. Then to my surprise, the next time I went, the old LP rack was replaced with a whole new one which came with its own new clips. Oh well, best plans and intentions lol.

 

[Initiator001]

It's possible that like many products over the years, the leads have shrunken as the desire to cut costs has increased, especially when production has been moved overseas where company oversight is less stringent. It may only be a fraction of an inch but given the number of igniters they sell every year it starts adding up.

Estes igniters/starters have been and continue to be made in Penrose, Colorado.

During the tour of the Estes facility during NARAM-60 I stood next to the table on which the igniter making machine was placed and watched it make igniters. It is one of the most unique purpose-built machines I have ever seen.

 

[BEC]

It's possible that like many products over the years, the leads have shrunken as the desire to cut costs has increased, especially when production has been moved overseas where company oversight is less stringent. It may only be a fraction of an inch but given the number of igniters they sell every year it starts adding up.

As Bob noted above, Estes igniters/starters are made on an amazing little machine (about the size of a big office desk) right there in Penrose. They are not and so far as I know never have been "made overseas". Here is a picture of a Solar Igniter on the left and a Startech Starter on the right that I just took. I don't have any of the yellow-tipped ones with me right now or I'd put one of those in the picture. Yeah, the Startech is ~1/8 inch shorter. I'd never noticed until you brought it up. I don't think there is any nefarious plot here to save large amounts of money shortchanging anyone.

What ?.....PYROGEN ?........ Heck, when I started, there was no such thing. We used a bare piece of nichrome wire. You formed a small coil around the tip of a ballpoint pen or tooth pick. Insert into the motor being carefull the wire does not touch and short. Add a ball of wadding tamped in with the pen. Good to go! Sometimes had to hold the button a few seconds depending on the battery condition. A 6v lantern batt. was
the norm.

I used to wrap my nichrome coils around the safety key of my Electro-Launch or Launch Control System.

Most failures I see now are operator error more than anything. Igniter not in contact with the propellent, or shorted.

Agreed!

When I started they had special clips with flat ends so they were easy to clean with a piece of sandpaper. The launch systems I've used at club launches all have the average alligator clips. Sometimes they are a little tricky to get to clamp on a small diameter igniter wire, and I don't know how you would effectively clean one down into the little crevaces at the bottoms of the teeth.

I MUCH prefer the flat-tipped clips (as are still used on Estes launch controllers) and have them on all the clip leads for my personal systems and my club's system.

Too bad the copper Mueller clips that used to come with Estes launchers 40 years ago are a shadow of their former selves.

I do find the alligator types on even LPR pads when I fly with other clubs. I grumble a bit, and if need be hit them with a wire brush in a small battery-powered Dremel.

After the ignitor is plugged into the motor, I make sure to never torque/twist/rotate the wire. I think that could transfer the rotation down into the nozzle and lead to shorts.

YES! That's how they get mangled like the one that James pulled out of that motor at the beginning of his video.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I wish the flat clips were larger, so they were easier to handle. I like these alligator clips. About every other time, I sand off the corrosion as best I can. I bend the wire that sticks out of the clip to increase contact.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KZWB333/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[BEC]

I agree the little flat clips are hard to handle. But they are still better (IMO) than anything with lots of teeth, especially once they get used a bit.

 

[shockie]

OK, I'm searching for something superior. When working with black powder motors, the weak spot is the ignitors that come with the Estes motors. While it's nice that they include those little plastic buttons to hold the ignitor in place, they invariably fall out and/or wind up crushing the leads just inside the nozzle enough to short them out. I'm terrified of trying a cluster when I it takes 2 attempts just to launch a single BP motor. I may go back to masking tape and a little ball of recovery wadding, like back in the 1970's.

I'm following the recommendations -- insert ignitor, insert plug, bend leads in a "u" shape so the clips have more to grab. And still, many problems trying to get things to launch, although it may be the club's system is just bad, as I'm not the only person to experience the failures, everybody has the same problem. We probably need to clean those clips too.

But if anybody has suggestions to make the ignitors more reliable, I'm all ears. Are electric matches the way to go?

That's why I quit using them and switched to https://electricmatch.com/rocketry/see/36/6/mjg-firewire-initiater

 

[KenECoyote]

I like the flat clips and whenever using them with the Estes sets, I'll often pull/yank the burnt igniter wire out (rather than unclipping) so that the inside surfaces are kept clean of exhaust residue.

This has been working great for me even after hundreds of launches

 

[OC-Patrick]

I estimate my Estes ignitor failure rate at about 5% (roughly 1 failure for every 20 launch attempts). And I'd say of that 5%, about 1/2 was my fault for not installing the tip against the propellant. So can't really say anything really bad here.

 

[CalebJ]

I estimate my Estes ignitor failure rate at about 5% (roughly 1 failure for every 20 launch attempts). And I'd say of that 5%, about 1/2 was my fault for not installing the tip against the propellant. So can't really say anything really bad here.

Same here.

 

[cwbullet]

I estimate my Estes ignitor failure rate at about 5% (roughly 1 failure for every 20 launch attempts). And I'd say of that 5%, about 1/2 was my fault for not installing the tip against the propellant. So can't really say anything really bad here.

The problem with the statement is: Which Estes Igniter? There are at least 4 different igniters sold by Estes in the past 10 years.

 

[CalebJ]

My own statement was regarding the ones in production prior to the Startech version.

 

[Joekeyo]

Silly Rabbit, certs don't come with rockets!

Bend the leads like silly rabbit ears.