# Estes Executioner #1951 Rerelease!!

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#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
That's cool! I had bought one and never built it --- passed it on to a fellow TRF member. About the time I got it, I was eager to move on to the PSII builder kits that were first being released at the time. I agree, an upgrade to 29mm to use the Estes F motor would be great. You would need a new motor tube, centering rings and retainer, and you'd need to cut down the fin tabs or make new fins.

#### KenRico

##### 'Just the Tip'
I just gave my spare to a buddy !

Great kit with Through The Wall fins and slotted airframe .. psII jr

Updated with a new Estes retainer instead of hook !

Kenny

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#### JumpJet

##### Well-Known Member
I just wanted to let you know there are two differences between the old and this new version. You now have the 24mm plastic retainer system instead of the metal engine hook and the plywood fins have been replaced with Balsa Fins. Why you ask were the plywood fins replaced with Balsa Fins; the answer is simply. Our China supplier doesn't have plywood that a human can eat in the great state of California so I was forced to go with Balsa.

John Boren

#### eedetail

##### Well-Known Member
John,
It took me three times to make sense of the 'plywood a human can eat' statement... glad i dont live in the evil-doer nation of Kalifornia!

Thanks for bringing this one back, will get a couple kits coming when they become available.
TimE

#### samb

Well, THANKS CHINA. And THANKS CALIFORNIA.

First thought... 1/32 ply skins.

Second thought... 29mm motor tube and a 24mm adapter.

#### samb

John,
It took me three times to make sense of the 'plywood a human can eat' statement... glad i dont live in the evil-doer nation of Kalifornia!

...
Yes but their rules are determining the contents of our model rocket kits.

#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Well, I do live in California, and I'll have you know we eat plywood all the time, and we expect it to be DELICIOUS! If the Chinese can't make a halfway decent edible plywood, then I say BOO! Boo, China! BOOOOOOO!!!

To me, the plywood fins on the Executioner were kind of an odd halfway step toward mid power. They were really the only upgraded component. You still had thin-wall BT80 tubing, cardboard centering rings, and I think it was still a plastic chute (not certain about the chute). My impression was that the only advantage was that the fins would be more durable for landings, which is great, but they seemed out of place with the other lightweight materials.

It it would be great if there were centering rings to mount the 29mm motor tube inside BT80 tubing. The Executioner would be a nice big rocket for the E16 and F15, and cardboard CRs would be fine for that kind of thrust. A big, lightweight paper and balsa rocket for the F15 would be really nice.

#### KenECoyote

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
You can eat Chinese plywood, but you get hungry an hour later. :tongue:

Great to hear the Executioner's back! :clap:

#### scsager

##### Slightly burned-out old guy
Well this is good news indeed!

Lessee here jest' a minute...

Swap out the elastic for 20 feet of #750 Kevlar.
Save the 24mm mount and retainer for my Baby Bertha - Upgrade both to 29mm.
Chuck the "lead-free" Balsa for some 1/8" Lite Ply.
Add a 9 x 9 Nomex Blanket and an 18" or 24" nylon chute.
Ditch the lug for rail buttons - or just have both - yup that's even better!

Gonna' reach for the STARS - so lets add a Jolly Logic Chute Release to make recovery easier.
Need an altimeter just to see how high and fast she went...
Might as well tape on one of those keychain type cameras - gotta' have proof - get an HD one, they don't cost much more.

Goes 900' on an E15 or 3700' on an I205 :dark:

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
Goes 900' on an E15 or 3700' on an I205 :dark:
Your I205 sim also says it'll go beyond Mach 1

#### Cabernut

##### Well-Known Member
I think an I205 would take it up to more like 200 ft... or the altitude where the BT-80 explodes. :y:

The only mod I would make is to paper the fins. D12s and E12s would be plenty fun for this rocket.

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
The Kalifornians can't eat the plywood? Maybe there'll be more for me here then!

#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Thanks for the link. That sounds like it would do it. What I really had in mind was cardboard like most LPR kits use (maybe Semroc has those too). My thoughts about the F15 motors are that they are low thrust motors, and you could build some decent rockets out of LPR materials that would be very light, but plenty strong enough for these motors. Once you get into plywood centering rings and fins, the rockets start getting heavy pretty fast, and soon you need AP motors with higher thrust to fly them reliably. Or you need to make the rockets smaller if you want to use the 29mm BP motors.

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
Thanks for the link. That sounds like it would do it. What I really had in mind was cardboard like most LPR kits use (maybe Semroc has those too). My thoughts about the F15 motors are that they are low thrust motors, and you could build some decent rockets out of LPR materials that would be very light, but plenty strong enough for these motors. Once you get into plywood centering rings and fins, the rockets start getting heavy pretty fast, and soon you need AP motors with higher thrust to fly them reliably. Or you need to make the rockets smaller if you want to use the 29mm BP motors.
If eRockets.biz ddoesn't have them, I'd try Sunward.

#### scsager

##### Slightly burned-out old guy
Thanks for the link. That sounds like it would do it. What I really had in mind was cardboard like most LPR kits use (maybe Semroc has those too). My thoughts about the F15 motors are that they are low thrust motors, and you could build some decent rockets out of LPR materials that would be very light, but plenty strong enough for these motors. Once you get into plywood centering rings and fins, the rockets start getting heavy pretty fast, and soon you need AP motors with higher thrust to fly them reliably. Or you need to make the rockets smaller if you want to use the 29mm BP motors.
Thirsty - I totally get your weight concern. I like to keep my builds light too!!!

I usually get centering rings from Bill at Balsa Machining Service. I'm not sure where he gets his Lite Plywood from, but I'm willing to bet its about the same weight as cardstock "fiberboard".

I have some BMS part # CR52H80-W in my Box-O-Parts. They weight 3.1 grams each, and his price is $0.55 each. Bill also sells sheets of 1/8" lite Plywood. His Lite Plywood is NOT bullet-proof, but it's only a few grams heavier than the same size balsa. P.S. - I wasn't kidding about the "I" motor either. :dark: Plain un-reinforced BT80 is really very strong. I have yet to shred any BT80 based rocket. (I did have one burn-up on the pad, but it didn't shred) Here's my proof - Big Honkin' ply fins on a BT80 Cherokee-I. I flew this at LDRS33 to 3200 feet on a CTI 29mm 6-grain I-204 . The Big draggy fins kept it below mach. [YOUTUBE]PUfa88LRKIk[/YOUTUBE] #### bill_s ##### Well-Known Member The original Executioner fins were a different thickness -- 3/32" or metric in that range. Can't get it. Also stronger and unwarped unlike almost all lite ply. It needs something that will let it come down quicker and harder than before. Makes no sense, are plastic fins edible? Seems to me balsa would cause distress. Best solution is not eat it. P.S. I have set of original fins, would they fit? I'm guessing yes but loose. Last edited: #### Charles_McG ##### Ciderwright I'd hazard a guess that Estes needs/wants their rockets to be classified as toys (in CA). And that toys have to be mouthably non-toxic. They've already had short term supplier issues with inedible parachutes. So yes, I'm guessing the plastic fins are 'edible'. (Just boil until al dente.) #### EXPjawa ##### Well-Known Member The original Executioner fins were a different thickness -- 3/32" or metric in that range. Can't get it. Also stronger and unwarped unlike almost all lite ply. It needs something that will let it come down quicker and harder than before. Makes no sense, are plastic fins edible? Seems to me balsa would cause distress. Best solution is not eat it. Seems like a good application for basswood. #### K'Tesh ##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris TRF Supporter P.S. I have set of original fins, would they fit? I'm guessing yes but loose. Scan them for me would ya? I need a ruler in the scan (preferably with 1/16, or finer marks) #### bill_s ##### Well-Known Member ^^-- They're still attached to a messed up rocket... so Maybe. I was just thinking it would be the easiest way to reuse them. #### JumpJet ##### Well-Known Member When you have through the wall fin mounting where the fin actually glues to the motor mount tube the Centering rings are there just to center the motor mount tube in the main body tube while the glue dries. Just think of all the glue area you have between the root edge of the fins making contact with the motor tube and the walls of the body tube, WAY more glue area then you would ever get between the centering rings and motor mount tube alone. So for a low power model rocket thin card stock centering rings are more then enough with through the wall fin mounting and the use of even a G size motor. John Boren #### caveduck ##### semi old rocketeer hmmm a plan is taking shape...glass the thinwall tube, eat the fit-for-human-consumption balsa (Cholula sauce helps), replace fins with possibly inedible plywood, maybe likewise with rings, change shock line to definitely inedible Kevlar, put a drone tracker TX in the nose, stock up on the very tasty I205's, and take the thing to Lucerne for some 1 km+ fun. :grin: #### cerving ##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry TRF Sponsor TRF Supporter At least they didn't change the fins to those awful 2-piece E2X plastic fins. Paper the fins, keep it light, and it should fly great on a F24, or even better on one of the CTI 24mm G's. #### ThirstyBarbarian ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Thirsty - I totally get your weight concern. I like to keep my builds light too!!! I usually get centering rings from Bill at Balsa Machining Service. I'm not sure where he gets his Lite Plywood from, but I'm willing to bet its about the same weight as cardstock "fiberboard". I have some BMS part # CR52H80-W in my Box-O-Parts. They weight 3.1 grams each, and his price is$0.55 each. Bill also sells sheets of 1/8" lite Plywood. His Lite Plywood is NOT bullet-proof, but it's only a few grams heavier than the same size balsa.

P.S. - I wasn't kidding about the "I" motor either. :dark: Plain un-reinforced BT80 is really very strong. I have yet to shred any BT80 based rocket. (I did have one burn-up on the pad, but it didn't shred)

Here's my proof - Big Honkin' ply fins on a BT80 Cherokee-I. I flew this at LDRS33 to 3200 feet on a CTI 29mm 6-grain I-204 . The Big draggy fins kept it below mach.

Thanks for the info. And the video is very cool! Some of the stills in the video are fantastic!

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
hmmm a plan is taking shape...glass the thinwall tube, eat the fit-for-human-consumption balsa (Cholula sauce helps), replace fins with possibly inedible plywood, maybe likewise with rings, change shock line to definitely inedible Kevlar, put a drone tracker TX in the nose, stock up on the very tasty I205's, and take the thing to Lucerne for some 1 km+ fun. :grin:
You forgot to wash, rinse, and repeat... :wink:

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
Very Cool Video scsager!!!

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Thirsty - I totally get your weight concern. I like to keep my builds light too!!!

I usually get centering rings from Bill at Balsa Machining Service. I'm not sure where he gets his Lite Plywood from, but I'm willing to bet its about the same weight as cardstock "fiberboard".

I have some BMS part # CR52H80-W in my Box-O-Parts. They weight 3.1 grams each, and his price is \$0.55 each. Bill also sells sheets of 1/8" lite Plywood. His Lite Plywood is NOT bullet-proof, but it's only a few grams heavier than the same size balsa.

P.S. - I wasn't kidding about the "I" motor either. :dark: Plain un-reinforced BT80 is really very strong. I have yet to shred any BT80 based rocket. (I did have one burn-up on the pad, but it didn't shred)

Here's my proof - Big Honkin' ply fins on a BT80 Cherokee-I. I flew this at LDRS33 to 3200 feet on a CTI 29mm 6-grain I-204 . The Big draggy fins kept it below mach.