Estes E9-4 & E9-6 CATO (pics)

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jpoehlman

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I took my 2 boys to the DARS launch this morning. It was a cooler morning (at least for us here in Texas) with overnight temps at or just below freezing, but comfortably in the high 40's by the time of the failures. The failures where on Estes E9's with a Date code of A 06 28 11, but they had different delay's, E9-4 and E9-6. I did get some interesting photo's of the failures as the occurred:

Mega E9-4 1.jpgMega E9-4 2.jpgNeon E9-6 1.jpgNeon E9-6 2.jpg

Is this a known batch of failures?
Would the cold temperatures be a factor (motor's where store in the garage in a range box)?

I've filed a MESS report at motorcato.org and emailed Estes. It there anything else I should do?

The good news of the day was a recovered keychain camera found from a June 1015 launch. The camera appears to be functional despite the weather and apparent mower rash!

Enjoy,

Jack
 
I have seen no rhyme or reason on E9 and E12 failures the last year and a half. some go boom, sone blow out the nozel and some burn through the side. Almost a third of them have isues. Temperature cycling in the midwest may have increased the issue but I have seen new packs of E9's Estes sent to replace catoed engines that I know we're not heat cycled cato this past summer.
 
Sorry to see that this is still going on with Estes E9s. You did all the right things, and I'm sure you'll be compensated. If you really like flying 24mm E motors, it may be time to invest in a casing and start using APCP reloads.
 
I lost a V-2 to E9-6 CATO this fall, but the motor was a '12 date code. I wasn't aware of the CATO frequency on these motors; it seemed like the lower thrust and combustion pressure would have made them more reliable than the old E15.

Estes did a great job getting me a new kit and motors to replace the damaged V-2. However, I think I'll stick with Aerotech E motors after my current stockpile is used up!
 
While we're on the topic (sorry to derail), but are the CATO occurrences primarily just the realm of E9 & E12 motors, or does it extend into the 29mm BP motors with any frequency?
 
While we're on the topic (sorry to derail), but are the CATO occurrences primarily just the realm of E9 & E12 motors, or does it extend into the 29mm BP motors with any frequency?

I haven't seen any 29mm Estes motors blow. or any D12-s or C11's And until about a year and a half ago the E motors worked fine. It got to the point I sold off my stock of Estes E motors at $10.00 a pack (yes I lost money) to folks wanting to play E roulette. I wont get any more to sell until the issue is corrected. I know they know how to make good ones as they have been on the market for years with no big issue.
 
When they offer you D12's (no hazmat shipping) Jump on it for two packs worth.
 
Terrific..I have 2 unopened packages of E9-8's with that code. I'll fly them in an E2X model that's still in production so both can be replaced if there's a problem.
 
In the immortal words of Jeffrey Lebowski, "That's a real bummer man."
 
I hate it when that happens.......

I seem to recall some discussion that a cold soaked BP motor might shrink the grain enough to help cause a cato.

If these motors were stored in a garage last summer with some heat exposure, the temp cycle from last summer to now could be some of the cause.

I keep my motors in the house.
 
that could be part of the cause but the replacement pack from Estes blowing that was not heat cycled?
 
I hate it when that happens.......

I seem to recall some discussion that a cold soaked BP motor might shrink the grain enough to help cause a cato.

If these motors were stored in a garage last summer with some heat exposure, the temp cycle from last summer to now could be some of the cause.

I keep my motors in the house.

These where stored in our detached garage after I purchased them at clearance from Fry's Electronics early last year best I can recall.

We flew 2 of the E9-4's from the same pack at the December DARS launch.

I did notice condensation collecting on a pack of D12's as it sat in the sun in the range box, so there was defiantly some temperature cycle occurring.
 
All this talk of having to treat Estes E and larger BP motors with special care is just silly. If they're not safe with normal temp cycling, where other size motors are, then they're not safe at all.

You don't really think that they get handled with kid gloves in climate controlled conditions in the 'normal' cycle of distribution before they get to the shelves, do you?
 
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That may be the heart of the issue - what I've read indicates that the larger the grain is, the potentially more fragile it is, thus more susceptible to damage if poorly handled. That's why we don't see large BP motors, and it took a long time before we saw 29mm ones. The idea of condensation inside the package - which I've witnessed too - seems disturbing. My uninformed notion is that these things should be kept dry...
 
Looks like the motor is just starting to come out the bottom in the last pic!

Should have memorized that date code, I blew up 2 of those back on Jan 2. Emailed Estes who asked for pics, sent, but haven't heard a thing now for going on 2 weeks. Is this normal, Santa will one day drop me a package?

Looking down in the tube:
inside_motor.jpg

There looks to be lumps in front of the nozzle (inside bottom). It appears brown like there was a flaw in the tube or one was caused when the nozzle was inserted. Could have happened when the grain was ejected but otherwise could explain the whole problem. I haven't tried removing the gunk left in a normally burnt motor to compare, as is you can't see down there that far.

BTW, Aerotechs are great but they are no substitute for the ease and cheapness of shoving in an E9.
 
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EVERY BP motor has bumps inside after a normal burn. The inner layer of the cardboard tube is actually charred and partially burns away. This is why if you look at the real thrust curve from a motor, you will see the average thrust increase very slightly over time - the longer it burns, the more exposed inside casing surface and the more erosion of the cardboard, which is ejected out the nozzle. F=ma so more mass going out the nozzle = more thrust.

This is why the upper stage of a tandem motor produced 10% more thrust - at least up until the point where the lower motor casing suffered a burn through....

Looks like the motor is just starting to come out the bottom in the last pic!

Should have memorized that date code, I blew up 2 of those back on Jan 2. Emailed Estes who asked for pics, sent, but haven't heard a thing now for going on 2 weeks. Is this normal, Santa will one day drop me a package?

Looking down in the tube:
View attachment 280296

There looks to be lumps in front of the nozzle (inside bottom). It appears brown like there was a flaw in the tube or one was caused when the nozzle was inserted. Could have happened when the grain was ejected but otherwise could explain the whole problem. I haven't tried removing the gunk left in a normally burnt motor to compare, as is you can't see down there that far.

BTW, Aerotechs are great but they are no substitute for the ease and cheapness of shoving in an E9.
 
While we're on the topic (sorry to derail), but are the CATO occurrences primarily just the realm of E9 & E12 motors, or does it extend into the 29mm BP motors with any frequency?

I've flown probably 20-30 E16 and F15 motors since their release (mostly F15), and all have functioned nominally. No CATOs, no inaccurate delays. Great motors!

All E12 motors with date codes 2012 or newer (at least 5 packs) have also functioned ok for me. That wasn't the case for 2011 date codes.

Since the advent of the E12, I've flown very few E9 motors.
 
I had one F15 CATO this weekend. First time for a 29mm BP issue. I have come to expect it from E9 and E12, but the F15 was a surprise.
 
Last year at Snow Ranch, three rockets with either E9's or D12's (don't remember) drag raced and all of the motors cato'd at the exact same time.
 
I took my 2 boys to the DARS launch this morning. It was a cooler morning (at least for us here in Texas) with overnight temps at or just below freezing, but comfortably in the high 40's by the time of the failures. The failures where on Estes E9's with a Date code of A 06 28 11, but they had different delay's, E9-4 and E9-6. I did get some interesting photo's of the failures as the occurred:

Yes, that looks like one of the Date codes that has had cato's. The codes that I have that have had failures are as follows:

For E12 A 08 18 11
and 06 14 01

For E9 06 28 11
08 18 11
 
Update on results from Estes:

The first two emails to Estes went unanswered...... Guesting they got lost / blocked / spam filter as I included inline pictures. 3rd email with no pictures was answered within hours!

Mega Mosquito is out of production, so I was asked to pick a replacement.

I let the boys review all the kits that use E motors, and the consensus was ...... Estes SLV.

Received order confirmation today within hours of choice!

Super neon XL
Estes SLV
3 pack E9-6
3 pack E9-8

I'm happy and the boys are happy!

Thanks Estes for the support.

Now, do we kit bash the Super Neon XL with the upper tube of the carcass?

Other ideas?

Do we need find and Tube fins?

Jack
 
I also have some warranty stuff coming now. Very generous indeed!
 
Hello,
I have been lurking for a few months but this is the 1st information that I had to add.

Yesterday, I was launching off rockets with my kids and some friends, It was a great day. We had launched my 9yo son's scratch built rocket on an Aerotech e20, which was awesome. I was ready to go home, but one of the kids wanted to see my Estes V2 fly. Now, the funny thing is I had actually read this thread a few days ago, but that morning I went to the new Hobby Lobby near me, and , well, if I am going to get 40% off, it was going to be on the most expensive motors; Estes E9-4.

Ok, ok I will launch it off (twist my arm). I actually put a D12 in it, then thought, what the hell. What are the odds of trouble. Pulled it out and stuck in the E9-4.

5..4..3..2 ..1 KA-BAM!

It may have lifted off the rod, but it happened so fast I don't know. It was like an M80 going off.

I took this picture to send to Estes, so I thought I may as well post it here. I didn't keep all of the pieces.

e9v2.jpg

engine code was A 01 12 16

Kids thought it was awesome!
 
Hello,
I have been lurking for a few months but this is the 1st information that I had to add.

Yesterday, I was launching off rockets with my kids and some friends, It was a great day. We had launched my 9yo son's scratch built rocket on an Aerotech e20, which was awesome. I was ready to go home, but one of the kids wanted to see my Estes V2 fly. Now, the funny thing is I had actually read this thread a few days ago, but that morning I went to the new Hobby Lobby near me, and , well, if I am going to get 40% off, it was going to be on the most expensive motors; Estes E9-4.

Ok, ok I will launch it off (twist my arm). I actually put a D12 in it, then thought, what the hell. What are the odds of trouble. Pulled it out and stuck in the E9-4.

5..4..3..2 ..1 KA-BAM!

It may have lifted off the rod, but it happened so fast I don't know. It was like an M80 going off.

I took this picture to send to Estes, so I thought I may as well post it here. I didn't keep all of the pieces.

View attachment 300964

engine code was A 01 12 16

Kids thought it was awesome!

Yep, that is one of new date code numbers that is having trouble.
 
Yep, that is one of new date code numbers that is having trouble.

The real trouble is that 'troubled batches' keep showing up. The "temp cycling" has been debunked. The "cracks from handling" has been debunked. When is it going to be pretty plain that there's a problem with either chemistry or manufacture? Probably not self evident because some have no luck at all with these grenades (me, 3 from 3 different date codes on the same day, ruined 3 different rockets) and others have lit off dozens of these things with no issues.

Estes will probably replace your rocket and motors if you send them an email and pictures. I suggest that you request a DIFFERENT motor, and stay away from the Es altogether. Why get more rocket bombs, even if they're 'free' replacements?

The best customer service and warranty is NEVER having to test how good it is because of a (continually) failing product.

If you do get more Es, only fly them in Estes rockets so you can pretty much guarantee a replacement rocket.
 
I have to wonder if a QC problem appeared somewhere along the line. They have been around since 2002 and I only remember reports of their failures some time around when the E12's came out. I have flown 143, fewer in later years. My one cato was a long time ago and can be attributed to...er...user error. I am probably all wet, but....
 
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