Estes E9-0 still available?

[pr_rocket04]

Does anyone know if Estes E9-0 booster motors are still in production, and if they can be found anywhere?

 

[Maelstrom]

I don't know about E9-0 but I should be able to get E9-P (if you aren't planning on doing any staging) for about $11.99 + shipping.

 

[shreadvector]

This has been explained on r.m.r. and also in various Yahoogroups (like the TARC group), but it never hurts to re-type it and save folks that annoying "search".

Estes made a few to test and they had them certified, BUT they NEVER released any production E9-0 motors. They had too low of an initial thrust and too long of a low, sustaining thrust for the average American consumer to use them safely. In other words, they wisely realized that some inDUHviduals would use them as boosters for rockets that were WAY too heavy and then they would arc way over or point downward and the resulting crash and fire (multiplied by hundreds of inDUHviduals) would be "bad".

D12-0 has a much higher initial thrust spike and is better for boosting heavy models.

See the NAR website for complete and accurate thrust curves and performance data.

See the Estes website for complete thrust curves.

Originally posted by pr_rocket04
Does anyone know if Estes E9-0 booster motors are still in production, and if they can be found anywhere?

 

[pr_rocket04]

I had actually already figured this fact out. These were going to be the second stage motors of a three stage cluster. Looks like D12-0's it is.

 

[r1dermon]

estes should make a higher thrust faster burning, FULL E motor. that would be cool

 

[shreadvector]

Actually, that would be "HOT".

"That's hot"

Originally posted by r1dermon
estes should make a higher thrust faster burning, FULL E motor. that would be cool

 

[pr_rocket04]

Yes! I have wondered why Estes has not realized how much we need a full E(especially the booster motors).

 

[powderburner]

You can see for yourself why Estes has not pursued a 'full' E motor---- the design that they already have for an E will barely fit into the 3.75 inch motor case.

Estes doesn't like to design a motor for just one application, like a booster. They want to sell it in enough numbers to make it economically viable (remember, these companies are in business for BUSINESS, not for fun). That means they want to make a version with a 4 second delay, and a 6, and probably an 8 too. Ever looked into the front end of an Estes E9-anything? They are pretty much full up to the top; there is not a lot of room for more propellant to get closer to a full E impulse.

They could redesign the motor case to be 4.75 inches long, but that means that everyone gets mad at them because the new motor does not fit into the old rockets. You also begin to get into the legal aspects of selling and shipping rocket motors with excessive (there's our pesky 'ol government at work for us again) amounts of black powder inside.

Last but not least, I don't think Estes will ever design a motor that delivers 99 percent of the impulse for a given motor class. They seem to like to aim low and leave plenty of margin in case a few 'hot' motors slip through the manufacturing process. Ever noticed that very very few of the Estes motors come close to delivering full class impulse?

 

[r1dermon]

estes E motors already require a HAZMAT to ship, they are over the propellent limit for a grain. i dont think people would get mad if estes made a 4.75" E20 or something, because WITH it they could release the super E class rockets. upscaled V2, modified saturn V, updated eliminator, just a whole new line of POWER rockets. or they could make the E a 29mm, and update their rockets like that. i think their sales would go through the roof if they had a marketing ploy like..."will do over 500mph on our specialty E20 motor" people would TOTALLY scoop those babies up. sell them 3 packs for 20 bucks. slightly more than the E9. a 2 second burning high thrust E motor. thats the way to go. estes is missing the boat. quest is going to read this thread and come to grips with reality and start production, then they will take over the motor making world!!!

 

[powderburner]

Originally posted by r1dermon
estes is missing the boat.

I think the motor you describe would be terrific, and I would definitely be the first on my block to go get about 100 of 'em. Not sure about the 29mm thing, maybe it would be unavoidable, but a full-rated E at economical prices would sell like crazy.
I don't have a clue why Estes has not presented this sort of motor already.

 

[rstaff3]

It might be that they just have problems with the higher impulse motors. Wasn't there an E15 that was known to CATO? Maybe it's a fab issue.

 

[Bazookadale]

Originally posted by rstaff3
It might be that they just have problems with the higher impulse motors. Wasn't there an E15 that was known to CATO? Maybe it's a fab issue.

You have to be very careful with the chamber pressure on a black powder motor, it is brittle and can be more prone to crack at high pressures. This was not the only issue but part of the cato problems with the D13 and the E15

 

[pr_rocket04]

I myself would think a manufacturer could easily update a design to achieve higher chamber pressures. I would guess a slight modification in case design could prove economical and very much benefitial to Estes sales. I hope someone discovers the fact that many people would jump on these things.

 

[r1dermon]

god yeah. at the soaring price of aerotech SU motors, people would not have any quams saying, hey, bigger is better, and picking up some high E's to get their bird moving. well, we all know they can make a reliable 12Ns average motor which is reliable, so why not an E12, full E that burns for like 3 seconds or so. it would lift those heavy rockets just as well as the D12 but it would have more than twice the burn time. REALLY getting those light rockets zipping.

 

[daveyfire]

The problem is grain strength. As bazookadale said, black powder is brittle. If you've reloaded a composite motor, you know that the propellant is nice and rubbery. If you drop it (don't do it), it'll bounce. If you drop a black powder motor, it will crack the grain.

Grain crack = increased Kn = increased chamber pressure = BOOM.

When I used to buy D12-7s for my Maxi Force, I would always cringe as the sales clerk at the hobby store would slam them down on the counter as she rung up the sale. "Here ya go..." Luckily, I've only had a few D12s CATO.

The other problem is thermal cycling. If you put a BP motor in the closed trunk of a car on a nice, sunny day, it will get really hot. Then take that motor back home and put it in the garage and it will get really cold overnight. Black Powder and Cardboard and Clay all have different coefficients of thermal expansion -- and as such they will expand and contract at different rates. If the BP expands faster, it has no room to go (crack). If the BP expands slower, it pulls away from the case (crack). Ever have an Estes motor do the really cool "fireball" CATO, where it shoots the burning grain out the front of the rocket and you get a nice smoke trail out of it? That's a temperature cycling CATO.

The bigger the grain, the more surface area inside the motor there is. The more surface area there is, the more chance for something to go wrong.

BP just isn't a feasible propellant for commercially-produced large rocket motors. Rocketflite and FSI were the exceptions to this rule.

 

[n3tjm]

Originally posted by r1dermon
estes E motors already require a HAZMAT to ship, they are over the propellent limit for a grain.

E9's don't require a hazmat. They only have about 30 grams of fuel... that means they can go parcel post, which I believe is one of their design criteria.

 

[UhClem]

Estes E9 motors are classified by the DOT as NA0276, Class 1.4C. Only rocket motors classified as UN0454 or NA0323 (i.e. 1.4S) qualify for the USPS toy propellant device shipping exemption.

https://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/E9.pdf

Shows a propellant mass of 35.8 grams

 

[rstaff3]

This may be out of sequence, but what the hey.

I just saw part of a thread on rmr where someone reported that they confirmed from someone that somebody is going to make an E15P next year. Unfortunately the original post either haven't made it thru to my news server so I have no context....but it sounds interesting!

Decided to start a new thread....

 

[r1dermon]

they have 35 grams per motor...i was speaking about UPS too. sorry, i should've specified.

 

[cjl]

But they are only sold in three packs - with a total propellant mass of about 90g - hazmat.

 

[n3tjm]

Looks like the E9 has a weight of about 36 grams. If the shipping limit is 30 grams, yes it would require the hazmat... However... where is the 30 gram limit set? I look into shipping parcel post, and from what I could tell (with the post office help), all the documents I saw said 62 grams? What was I missing?

Also, its per motor. they dont take 30 grams * 3 = 90. They say 3 motors of 30.

 

[shreadvector]

NO.

Each E9 motor has more than 30 grams of propellant.

Read the online data at the NAR or Estes website or look in an Estes catalog.

They cannot be shipped USPS.

And the shipping regulations are PER motor, not per package of motors.

Originally posted by n3tjm
E9's don't require a hazmat. They only have about 30 grams of fuel... that means they can go parcel post, which I believe is one of their design criteria.

 

[shreadvector]

See my standard file attached. (Notice I said dropping or rattling, not smashing or hammering.)

Originally posted by daveyfire
The problem is grain strength. As bazookadale said, black powder is brittle. If you've reloaded a composite motor, you know that the propellant is nice and rubbery. If you drop it (don't do it), it'll bounce. If you drop a black powder motor, it will crack the grain.

Grain crack = increased Kn = increased chamber pressure = BOOM.

When I used to buy D12-7s for my Maxi Force, I would always cringe as the sales clerk at the hobby store would slam them down on the counter as she rung up the sale. "Here ya go..." Luckily, I've only had a few D12s CATO.

The other problem is thermal cycling. If you put a BP motor in the closed trunk of a car on a nice, sunny day, it will get really hot. Then take that motor back home and put it in the garage and it will get really cold overnight. Black Powder and Cardboard and Clay all have different coefficients of thermal expansion -- and as such they will expand and contract at different rates. If the BP expands faster, it has no room to go (crack). If the BP expands slower, it pulls away from the case (crack). Ever have an Estes motor do the really cool "fireball" CATO, where it shoots the burning grain out the front of the rocket and you get a nice smoke trail out of it? That's a temperature cycling CATO.

The bigger the grain, the more surface area inside the motor there is. The more surface area there is, the more chance for something to go wrong.

BP just isn't a feasible propellant for commercially-produced large rocket motors. Rocketflite and FSI were the exceptions to this rule.

 

[Elapid]

make FINE booster motors IMNSHO.


my Fat Boy Squared uses E9s for the booster and sustainer.
they are not really manufactured, they must be created.

a little EXtra work is all...