Estes B14

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Sooner Boomer

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Anyone know where I can find a thrust curve for an Estes B14? I found a couple of -5 time delays while cleaning out a junk box. I realize they're no longer certified (at least one is dated 1976), and one will get put in a plastic bottle to sit next to my Centauri B14-0. Just curious how sharp the thrust curve was, and what they would have flown in.
 

mwtoelle

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IIRC, The published thrust curve for the B14s showed a total burn time of .35 second with a peak thrust of 7 pounds at .175 second. This is for the classic B14 with the drilled core and large nozzle. They would be used in heavier 18mm rockets usually with a heavy payload. The B14-0s were great for flying three staged 18mm rockets, especially in the first stage.
 

Zeus-cat

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It has been so long since I have seen one I forgot that they made them with delays. All I recall are B14-0 motors/engines/whoosh generators for first stages.
 

BEC

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Here's a screen cap of a 600 dpi scan.....I happened to have a 1969 catalog laying here by the computer and scanner.....

Screen Shot 2017-07-04 at 10.19.16 AM.png
 

aerostadt

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These were really a fun motor back in their day and were one of kind. It was kind of like HPR warp motors except it was 18 mm, which was the prevailing motor diameter in the mid-1960's. I remember Estes had a small two-stage rocket called the Black Widow. The B14-0 was ideal in the first stage.
 

Woody's Workshop

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I don't ever remembering B-14's, I didn't get into it until 1970.
But by the trust curve chart, it must have made a heck of blast on the blast deflector.
I'll have to search YouTube to see if video exists of one going off.

EDIT:
After a few hours of searching, I came up with many B-14's.
From automotive engines to jet planes, but no model rocket B-14's being launched.
If someone has, or knows of a launch video...Please share.
 
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Buzzard

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Estes B16 Motors.jpg
Estes B16 Motors

Aerostadt - The Black Widow kit was from Centuri Engineering in the mid-'60s. Centuri sold relabeled Estes motors before making their own.

The original Estes high thrust or Series II motor was the B16-x. Big core and Big nozzle with short burn time. It later was the B14-x as the designation was changed after better testing (originally on a postal scale). When the motor designations went metric (circa 1970, IIRC), the motors became B3-x. The motors required a drilling process to create the bored core and that added extra steps. This was part of the reason that they were discontinued.
A newer motor came out later designated the B8-x. It used a "pantile" to shape the slightly longer core when the black powder was pressed into the motor case. The pintles eventually wore down or broke resulting in motor failures due to crack grains. The B8s were also discontinued.
Centuri did release their "Super C" motors - the C5-0 and C5-3. Bigger core and as much propellant that they could press in. This is why they did not offer longer delays. They were great motors when they worked.

Chas
 

ECayemberg

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View attachment 323373
Estes B16 Motors

Aerostadt - The Black Widow kit was from Centuri Engineering in the mid-'60s. Centuri sold relabeled Estes motors before making their own.

The original Estes high thrust or Series II motor was the B16-x. Big core and Big nozzle with short burn time. It later was the B14-x as the designation was changed after better testing (originally on a postal scale). When the motor designations went metric (circa 1970, IIRC), the motors became B3-x. The motors required a drilling process to create the bored core and that added extra steps. This was part of the reason that they were discontinued.
A newer motor came out later designated the B8-x. It used a "pantile" to shape the slightly longer core when the black powder was pressed into the motor case. The pintles eventually wore down or broke resulting in motor failures due to crack grains. The B8s were also discontinued.
Centuri did release their "Super C" motors - the C5-0 and C5-3. Bigger core and as much propellant that they could press in. This is why they did not offer longer delays. They were great motors when they worked.

Chas
Never once had a single Estes flavor C5-3 fail. Probably my favorite BP motor of all time, I miss them! Thankfully, still have a pretty good stash of them!

Only had the opportunity to fly one or two B14's; burned and staged so fast I couldn't determine if they worked or cato'd each time. Really cool booster motors!!! Have never seen the B16 label...cool bit o' history, Chas!
 
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shreadvector

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Metric and English motor information in the referenced post is backwards.

Very old motors were English units and were B3 (3 pounds average thrust).

Metric version of motors were B14 (14 Newtons average thrust).

And Very old motors had the original thick walled casing that was about .5 inches internal diameter and could not hold more than a B motor worth of propellant. When they came out with the thin walled casing, the C6 motor became possible.

i don't have the data on the thick walled B vs the thin walled B, but i strongly suspect that the original B3 was a thick walled casing motor. I looked at the attached photo and it is indeed the thick walled casing, so obviously the first metric version was a B16. The B14 was the thin walled version.

I know that there were two versions of B14 motor: original had the drilled two-step core and later version had a tapered core, similar to the B8/C5 core.



View attachment 323373
Estes B16 Motors

Aerostadt - The Black Widow kit was from Centuri Engineering in the mid-'60s. Centuri sold relabeled Estes motors before making their own.

The original Estes high thrust or Series II motor was the B16-x. Big core and Big nozzle with short burn time. It later was the B14-x as the designation was changed after better testing (originally on a postal scale). When the motor designations went metric (circa 1970, IIRC), the motors became B3-x. The motors required a drilling process to create the bored core and that added extra steps. This was part of the reason that they were discontinued.
A newer motor came out later designated the B8-x. It used a "pantile" to shape the slightly longer core when the black powder was pressed into the motor case. The pintles eventually wore down or broke resulting in motor failures due to crack grains. The B8s were also discontinued.
Centuri did release their "Super C" motors - the C5-0 and C5-3. Bigger core and as much propellant that they could press in. This is why they did not offer longer delays. They were great motors when they worked.

Chas
 

soopirV

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This is a fascinating history lesson for fliers like me who got into the hobby in the 80's! It seems to me that the 18mm estes motors I flew then are all still available now, and that what we have now is exactly what we had then...anyone know of any motors that changed in the past 30/40 years? I wonder if I'm missing a memory.
 

rstaff3

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I really loved the B14s but, alas, they were long gone when I became a BAR.
 

cavecentral

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Centuri vs. Estes b14s. I have some of both. Is there a major difference?
 

jd2cylman

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I flew rockets as a kid from the late '70's until mid '80's when someone invented girls. So probably 1975/76 to 1982/83ish. I distinctly remember flying a B14 during science class at the school on the soccer field. That was either 78/79 or 80/81. Somewhere between 7th and 10th grade. So they were available up til then at my favorite hobby shop/sporting goods store. Later on they switched to only sporting goods and I was crushed. But yeah, that B14 was cool in the booster position. I had a Arrow 300(?). I remember flying the full stack and the first stage dropped off head high, maybe 10' max. I'm sure that was the B14-0.
 

Buzzard

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Shredvector noted correctly: "Metric and English motor information in the referenced post is backwards."

Thanks Fred you are correct. In the effort to find the B16 photo I put the sequence out of order. The B3s were first as the standard motors at the time were in English measurements. The standard motors were 1/4A .8-x through B .8-6 and the lone C .8-0. That was where the B3-x were the Series II motors and 1.75" long Series III motors 1/4A .8 and 1/2A .8 motors. When they went metric with thinner wall casings they added A5 motors in the standard case. My go-to A Boost-glide motor prior to the 13mm series.

Old catalogs available in my garage or www.ninfinger.org

Old motors in eight ammo boxes...

Chas
 

mwtoelle

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Centuri vs. Estes b14s. I have some of both. Is there a major difference?
Centuri made 18mm motors from about late 1970 to 1974. All other years (1961-70 and 1975-83), the Centuri 18mm, 13mm, and 24mm motors were made by Estes with different printing on the casing.
 

Gary Byrum

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A couple of years ago, LW gave me two boxes of the old Centuri B14-0 motors and I used one in my 3 stage Brazen Bird rocket. I kept burning starters out having forgotten how deep the core was but we finally figured it out and got a successful flight. B14 was in the 1st stage but it burned so quickly, it's almost unnoticeable. Sorry for the poor video quality.

[video=youtube;_SniHp43Qac]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SniHp43Qac"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SniHp43Qac[/video]
 

LW Bercini

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A couple of years ago, LW gave me two boxes of the old Centuri B14-0 motors and I used one in my 3 stage Brazen Bird rocket. I kept burning starters out having forgotten how deep the core was but we finally figured it out and got a successful flight. B14 was in the 1st stage but it burned so quickly, it's almost unnoticeable. Sorry for the poor video quality.
IIRC Those motors were degraded. It worked, but I don't think it attained the specified thrust
 

shreadvector

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Probably the tapered core instead of the older/original stepped drilled core. More like a B8 with a deeper core.

IIRC Those motors were degraded. It worked, but I don't think it attained the specified thrust
 

Gary Byrum

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IIRC Those motors were degraded. It worked, but I don't think it attained the specified thrust
No doubt. They were really old. And we really don't know what conditions they had been through. Still burned pretty quick though. Seems to me, they should have been much stronger than they were.
 

shreadvector

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Just for the sake of clarity for those who were not around for the older motors:

As we noted, the original motor casings were very thick and the inside diameter was similar to the inside diameter of a mini-motor (less than .5 inches since the outside diameter of a mini-motor is .5 inch). As a result you could not get as much propellant inside and that is why there was only a booster C motor - no room for delay and ejection charge with that much propellant.

Since the inside diameter was so small, non-cored motors had lower average thrust. .8 pounds was about 3.56 newtons, so when they went metric, the motors with the .8 pound average thrust were closer to 4 newtons. Hence the original thick walled motors were actually A5 and B4 motors. The shorty motors eliminated an inch of empty and heavy casing so the mini A was the A5-xS (S for Shorty). Look at the rhust curves to see why the average thrust was 4 for the B, 5 for the A, 6 for the 1/2A and 3 for the 1/4A. The 1/2A was mostly peak thrust spike and the A and B had the sustaining thrust tail that brough the average down. The 1/4A never got to the top of the peak thrust spike, so it averaged out at 3 newtons.

With the thinner walled casings, motors had a larger grain diameter and so the burning area was greater. This gave us the A8, B6 and C6.

When the mini motors came out and they eliminated the thick walled casings, the B4 was re-engineered to use the new thin walled casings and that is why it has the larger diameter nozzle and deeper core. This affects the shape of the peak thrust "dome" and then the sustaining thrust is a flatter/smaller surface area burning surface which, combined with the larger throat diameter gives a lower sustaining thrust. The A8 also was re-engineered to use this new larger diameter nozzle and the thrust curve did change a bit. It is actually not an "8" newton average thrust motor anymore (nor has it been for decades), it is really an A3.

https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/70est092.html

https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/70est084.html

https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A8.pdf



Shredvector noted correctly: "Metric and English motor information in the referenced post is backwards."

Thanks Fred you are correct. In the effort to find the B16 photo I put the sequence out of order. The B3s were first as the standard motors at the time were in English measurements. The standard motors were 1/4A .8-x through B .8-6 and the lone C .8-0. That was where the B3-x were the Series II motors and 1.75" long Series III motors 1/4A .8 and 1/2A .8 motors. When they went metric with thinner wall casings they added A5 motors in the standard case. My go-to A Boost-glide motor prior to the 13mm series.

Old catalogs available in my garage or www.ninfinger.org

Old motors in eight ammo boxes...

Chas
 

Sooner Boomer

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Purely as a thought question: could someone buy a stock of Estes C motors, drill out the core to match the old B14 motors, and get them recertified?
 

sghioto

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Shockie you realize that thread is almost 3.5 years old correct?
 

mooffle

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Shockie you realize that thread is almost 3.5 years old correct?
As a TRF newbie I am 100% ok with this. Interesting thread that I never would have sought out on my own.
 

Bowman

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Does anybody remember a motor called "Mighty Max"? I think that was labeled as a Centuri product.
IIRC it was about the size of a G80 SU motor maybe a tad shorter.
I remember them on the counter at the hobby shop but I never had the coin to buy them.
 

Rocketjunkie

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Does anybody remember a motor called "Mighty Max"? I think that was labeled as a Centuri product.
Centuri Mini Max. 29 mm E and F BP motors, both end burners and core burners. Couldn't afford them, when I could, all there was were Enerjets.
 

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