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Estes 2157 Saturn V

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mach7

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Is I posted over in my cluster thread, I've started work on this behemoth again. I got it as a fathers day gift back in 2001 not long after I got back into the hobby. I started on it, made some mistakes, and put it on the shelf. I started up again about 2 years ago, posted on the old TRF, got lots of good advice. It seemed that a D12 would not have enough power to get a good flight. Much discussion ensued as to how best to get more power. Reloads or cluster. I decided to use the Moldin the oldies fin and capsule set, making the SV even heavier. I put it back on the shelf until I could decide what to do.

Flis kits has a 5 engine cluster mount. 4x13mm around 1x24mm. It seamed perfect for my situation. I have a small stock of A10PT's that I can use. I had originally planed on using an E motor for the central core but it would require major surgery to make it fit so D it is. As it is It will end up almost flush with the end of the main tube. This will require a slight mod at the tail. I'm not sure what I will do about it. I could extend the fin/fairings down a little or accept a smaller tail cut out between the fairings.

The only mod I had to make to the existing rocket was to clip off the end of the motor hook. I then built the Fliskits mount stock except I cut off about 3/4 inch of the BT-50. This allowed me to glue in a stage coupler that will be glued into the existing BT-50 motor mount. A centering ring at the end will complete the mod.

The 4 A10's should help get this thing up to speed before it leaves the launch rod.

Anyone have any tips or thoughts before I glue the new mount in?

I still need to figure out how much nose weight to add. I guess I'll just add the weight of the new mount+4 A10's+ the new fins minus the difference between the stock capsule and the resin one.

sv.jpg


sv1.jpg


sv2.jpg


sv3.jpg
 

mach7

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Wow those would be great. Unfortunately I all ready had the stock single 24mm motor mount installed. I had to come up with a remedy that could be adapted to the stock mount. The big problem, as I understand it, is the single D12 does not have enough thrust to get a safe speed for stability by the time it leaves the launch rod. Hopefully the 4 A10's should help out. I'm not that interested in getting altitude, I just want it to be stable in light wind when it leaves the pad.

Great Idea for a new build.
 

Brent

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I would use a 24mm E18 composite.
 

Verna

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Actually, the 2157 built stock will fly fine on a D12-3. Changing the fins to resin makes it marginal in a wind about 5 mph. Probably about 75'.

For a couple of quick examples of clustering a Saturn V go here: http://www.vernarockets.com/ and click on the links for Rocket Babe / 5 engine cluster and Bad Girl / 3 stage 11 engine full stack.

For tips on launching, flying and a detailed write up and build photos of both, go here: http://www.sears572.com/supersaturnv.htm

First off, you made a good choice by upgrading the flimsy vaccuformed fins of the 2157 kit to the Moldin Oldies fins. As far as adding weight it, should be no more than the combined weight of the additional mounts and motors. Based on your photos I'm going to take a wild guess and say about 2 ozs added to the capsule, IF, you have not glued it on. There is another possibility if you have.

In case you didn't check before, after you're finsihed with your modifications the cg should be 17.5" from the bottom of the fairings when fully prepped. Make sure you only use enough weight to move it back there.

You didn't say how you would deal with the burn through of the mini motors Since I don't use mini motors I don't know if they have a plugged version or not, so if your field allows you to "kick" motors I'd cap the engine mounts and let them kick out. Using 4 mini motors will help get it off the rod a little faster but I would still use the 3 second delay with the D12.

Check the Estes catalog and see how many ounces the 4 motors will lift. If the combined lifting weight is more than the rocket weighs fully prepped you're in good shape, as long as the cg is back where it should be.

One thing you might want to consider is making the mount removeable. If the original mount is already glued in, you can still make the mini's removeable.

Good luck!

Verna
 

dpower

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Check the Estes catalog and see how many ounces the 4 motors will lift. If the combined lifting weight is more than the rocket weighs fully prepped you're in good shape, as long as the cg is back where it should be.
This is a good point, you want to ensure the A10 motors don't light unless the D12 lights, because 4 of these will not lift this rocket safely by themselves (If a 5' rod was used, it might be stable, but would be lucky to reach 70', and hit the ground before the ejection charge fired, if using A10-3T). I saw somewhere a way to interlock clusters like this; hopefully someone who has done this can chime in here.
 

mach7

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Good points.

Thanks for the link Verna, nice rockets!

I like the idea of making the mount removable. I had not thought of that. I could use some screws to hold it in place I suppose. Something else I might do is instead of an aft centering ring, I might build balsa buttresses to stabilize the mount. One other thing I came up with is using a 2 piece centering ring and moving it down(forward) the mount. That would allow me to cut the bottom of the body tube as the instructions say for a more scale look.

Thanks for the C/G info. That is just what I need.
 
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Micromeister

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Personally My plan is to one day Cluster one of my 1/100th Saturn-V kits with a core D mount and 4 18mm C6's.
It's been done a bunch of times, Freds done an all 18mm, and several other folks have done 5 C6 clusters that have worked wonderfully.
 

FROB

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Personally My plan is to one day Cluster one of my 1/100th Saturn-V kits with a core D mount and 4 18mm C6's.
It's been done a bunch of times, Freds done an all 18mm, and several other folks have done 5 C6 clusters that have worked wonderfully.
I've got similar ideas- but scaled up a notch:
i got one of these about 30 years ago as a kid- still have it as i left it, about 30% built. this thread has prompted me to think about if and how i'd like to complete it. I'm thinking i would probably redo the engine mount as well, but make it 5x 29mm, or maybe a 38mm core mount, all in the "scale" engine locations- with the outboards canted in aimed at the CG. I think that would look great lifting off with 5x F25W, G40W, or even G79W's or some combination thereof. or if i can borrow enough cases, maybe G64W's.
Its too bad there aren't more long burn motors for this sort of thing, Something in white-smoky propellant at 4-6 seconds duration would be ideal.
Of course, it will need some reinforcement to withstand that much motor.
Maybe I'll start with some simple clustering experiments with this configuration in a 'disposable' cluster booster for my old beat-up 4" dia. LOC bullet, see how it goes, and make a final call after that.
 
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Verna

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Mark,

For launching, I strongly suggest going with a 3/16ths x 4' rod and a 12 volt lead acid battery. When clustering you want instant ignition, not a slow lag. Nothing beats a good car battery for launching clusters.

Verna
 

foose4string

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Mark,

For launching, I strongly suggest going with a 3/16ths x 4' rod and a 12 volt lead acid battery. When clustering you want instant ignition, not a slow lag. Nothing beats a good car battery for launching clusters.

Verna
Good tips. I think he said he'd only be flying this with his CMASS club in another thread.
 

mach7

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Yup,
Good points. A club launch only! Besides I'll need the expertise of the other club members as I have never launched a cluster.
 

NAR29996

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FWIW, I started my 2157 Saturn V this winter, also. I decided to install a 29mm motor mount, and to upgrade to the resin parts. It's coming along pretty well.

Regards,

Bob B
 

FROB

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FWIW, I started my 2157 Saturn V this winter, also. I decided to install a 29mm motor mount, and to upgrade to the resin parts. It's coming along pretty well.

Regards,

Bob B
Hey Bob, where did you get the resin upgrades? i fear I've lost a number of those itty bitty bits of styrene over the years, so that might be just the ticket.

Cheers
Frantz
 

Micromeister

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Yup,
Good points. A club launch only! Besides I'll need the expertise of the other club members as I have never launched a cluster.

A good Gel-Cell or Wet cell Hi amp/hr car battery along with a Relay Ignition system that places that battery at the launcher rather then the conroller side of the system.

Over the year i've learned there are three very important parts to flying clusters.
1) check and double check the igniters before, and AFTER installation in the motors. Can't tell you how many igniters I've found that are BAD right from the package. or some that i've snapped during the installation process.
Check, Check, Check!!!

2) Battery with Hi Amp hour rating. remembering the rule of thumb is 2 amps per igniter. but the more power you have in the battery the better,

3) HD relay placed at the Launcher, Most of my systems sit directly UNDER the launcher blast deflector. limiting the lead length on the load side of the relay to about 18-20" of 16 stranded copper wire
on the battery side of the relay connect with as heavy and short a set of wires as you can, #8 Copper is what I've come to use for BP clusterd up to 12.

and remember a clip whip is ONLY an extension of whatever system you have connected it to. a Clip whip no matter how well its made is only as good as the power it is supplied by the system.

Heres a couple pic and files that may help. This is the same relay system Jim Filler used with his 8 motor clustered staged Saturn-ib at Naram-50 last year. as you can see its been around a long time.

1.5v-d2-sm_revised Pocket Continuity Tester 3pic_09-06-05.jpg


Relay ignition system-b2-sm_Front set-up_04-11-92.jpg


077-b1a-sm_Bomarc 13,25 - 3 D12 test liftoff_08-04-90.jpg
 

mach7

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Thanks Micro! Good stuff there.
 

sandman

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Good tips. I think he said he'd only be flying this with his CMASS club in another thread.
The main thing about the Saturn V, I feel is that they pretty much need to be launched at a club event.

The Saturn V NEEDS an to be launched in front of an audience.

It's just way to cool to fly with only one or two people watching.
 

Micromeister

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The main thing about the Saturn V, I feel is that they pretty much need to be launched at a club event.

The Saturn V NEEDS an to be launched in front of an audience.

It's just way to cool to fly with only one or two people watching.
Well Gordon I sort of agree; but have to admit sometimes it's just as KEWL all by yourself.
I know the Very first time I launched my 1/100th Saturn-V I was all alone early in the morning.. and It was just...well...the only word I can come up with was "A thrill" seeing her lift off the pad, into the silent air with only the Wooosh of the D13-3 and some far off traffic noice to be heard.
Wished there were others around but it was really very satisfying.

001a01_Saturn-V & Pad-39 Gantry_05-18-70.jpg


Saturn-V flt 001-sm_1st flight Landover Md_05-18-70.jpg
 

MKP

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It's beautiful with that tower, such a pity it was destroyed.:mad:
 

RocketT.Coyote

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I've only flown my Estes Saturn V twice IIRC. In front of 100s of watchers, and only on Aerotech E15-4s.
 

dwmzmm

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The main thing about the Saturn V, I feel is that they pretty much need to be launched at a club event.

The Saturn V NEEDS an to be launched in front of an audience.

It's just way to cool to fly with only one or two people watching.
About 1 1/2 years ago I launched my vintage Centuri Saturn - V before a fairly large group (Cub Scout group with their parents/leaders and about a half
dozen Challenger 498 club members): The liftoff shot alone is worth making the cover of a Centuri catalog :D .......
Model was flown using cluster of three C6-3's.

Scout Troop 941&Challenger 498 Club Launch Rushing Park 069.jpg


Scout Troop 941&Challenger 498 Club Launch Rushing Park 075.jpg
 
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mach7

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Well I think I'm going to glue the mount in. I thought about making it removable but I think that will just add to the complexity and weight. I decided against the centering ring and am going with buttresses. to stabilize the mount. It is very sturdy without, but I think with 5 motors burning a little over building won't hurt.
 

Fred22

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My Sat V has a similar powerplant to your idea but four 18mm instead of 13. I use four C6-5's and a centre D12-5. I think your rocket will fly well and with all the sound advice you have received so far the cluster aspect should be fine :)

sat v for web.jpg
 

luke strawwalker

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My Sat V has a similar powerplant to your idea but four 18mm instead of 13. I use four C6-5's and a centre D12-5. I think your rocket will fly well and with all the sound advice you have received so far the cluster aspect should be fine :)

VERY cool pic Fred... Looks like a photo taken from a chase plane at altitude of the Saturn V after having broken through a solid cloud deck... cool effect.

I take it that's snow??

Later! OL JR :)
 

Fred22

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Thanks luke it was taken on a rather wintry day :)
Cheers
Fred
 

Fred22

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In the picture all you see are clouds though which did indeed drop snow if memory serves :)
Cheers
Fred
 

mach7

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Thanks Fred. I never get tired of seeing your Saturn V. A photo you posted on the old TRF was the inspiration for me to start up again on mine!
 

mach7

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Ok, here is what I have.

I mounted Jim's motor mount inside a section of BT-70. When the glue was dry I glued the whole kit and kabbodal into the base of the mighty Saturn. Then I cut sections of balsa to buttress the mount assembly inside the BT-101. Everything is in solid and dry. I can now move on to mounting the fin cans.

Progress, small but progress.

sv.jpg
 
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