# Estes 1969 Saturn V Status

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#### SecondRow

##### Well-Known Member
I was trying to find a picture of the Apollo 11 Saturn V to illustrate the discrepancy in the wraps, just to understand it better myself.

So, to clarify, the kit instructions and wraps will work fine and make a fully functional rocket, but they don't exactly match the layout of the actual historical rocket. If you follow the instructions and use the existing wraps, the model kit will build fine and line up the dowels with each other per the instructions.

Hard to find a picture without the tank covered in ice/frost and on that side of the tower. This picture shows how the kit wraps are laid out, side by side with a photo from Apollo 13 and where the mismatch with the historical rocket occurs:
View attachment 375479

Image from:

I could not find a similar picture of Apollo 11 on that side, I assume it would be similar.
This is a great post. Thanks for taking the time to research. I was confused by what the problem was, but I understand it now. You can even see how the access panels all line up in the original picture.

The fix is easy enough, but no one’s gonna know it’s off if you don’t do it. Not sure why some people lost their minds on FB.

#### GlenP

##### Well-Known Member
If you are entering a contest, and the category is “scale” and your rocket is scored on how well it matches your historical reference materials... then use the pictures of Apollo 11 that are covered in ice! The rocket, not the pictures, I mean.

#### Space Ranger

##### Well-Known Member
I like GlenP's great diagram in Post 360. I was also having a hard time visualizing the actual recommended "fix" for the Saturn wraps, so I laid the 4 wraps for the BT101 body tube out flat as they are to be glued per the instructions for kit #1969. I placed non-scale length dowels to represent the tunnels to be glued & took a picture below. As GlenP notes, it does NOT seem that this issue is a matter of the tunnels not lining up, they seem to line up fine without doing the "fix", but the issue seems to be an overall misalignment within the largest wrap (labeled as "Interstage Wrap in the instructions).

If I correctly understand Chris' post of Jay Chladek's recommended fix, the largest wrap should be cut all the way across between the 2 black arrows shown below, and then shifted sideways so that the 2 red dots I placed will line up. Fyi, the 2 red dots are about 2.7" apart before the fix. So then, there will be 5 separate wraps, the 3 lower ones should be glued to line up based on the lower dowel/tunnels and the vertical registration line you draw per the instructions. Then the upper 2 wraps will be glued so that the red dots and the upper tunnel lines up. This will create a jog in the vertical seam where the wraps are glued together. It would be great if Estes could confirm all of this & come up with a diagram & official addendum to the instructions.

I assume that if the wraps are glued on per the instructions (like laid out in my photo) -- without doing the "fix", when the roll patterns are painted on, some of the ullage motors, & other raised doo dads will end up in wrong parts of the roll patterns???

Close-up of the Interstage Wrap to be cut across at the black arrows and shifted to line up the 2 red dots. The lower red dot is on an umbilical attachment point (?) and the upper red dot is on an access panel (?) which should both be lined up as on the real Sat V.

#### Anton Epp

##### Member
I've started my build of the new Estes kit and adding the wraps is close on the horizon. Everyone seems to be doing the painting after the model is (mostly) built. This involves a lot of masking. Would life be any easier if the wraps were painted before they're attached? Or is that just opening a new can of worms?

#### captbk

##### Well-Known Member
After seeing post 363 I thought about the same thing. Too bad mines done already. If I had to do it over again I would paint the wraps before applying.

#### dpower

##### Well-Known Member
While I haven't tried it, I suspect paint would tend to chip off of the wraps if pre-painted.

#### dpower

##### Well-Known Member
I like GlenP's great diagram in Post 360. I was also having a hard time visualizing the actual recommended "fix" for the Saturn wraps, so I laid the 4 wraps for the BT101 body tube out flat as they are to be glued per the instructions for kit #1969. I placed non-scale length dowels to represent the tunnels to be glued & took a picture below. As GlenP notes, it does NOT seem that this issue is a matter of the tunnels not lining up, they seem to line up fine without doing the "fix", but the issue seems to be an overall misalignment within the largest wrap (labeled as "Interstage Wrap in the instructions).

If I correctly understand Chris' post of Jay Chladek's recommended fix, the largest wrap should be cut all the way across between the 2 black arrows shown below, and then shifted sideways so that the 2 red dots I placed will line up. Fyi, the 2 red dots are about 2.7" apart before the fix. So then, there will be 5 separate wraps, the 3 lower ones should be glued to line up based on the lower dowel/tunnels and the vertical registration line you draw per the instructions. Then the upper 2 wraps will be glued so that the red dots and the upper tunnel lines up. This will create a jog in the vertical seam where the wraps are glued together. It would be great if Estes could confirm all of this & come up with a diagram & official addendum to the instructions.

I assume that if the wraps are glued on per the instructions (like laid out in my photo) -- without doing the "fix", when the roll patterns are painted on, some of the ullage motors, & other raised doo dads will end up in wrong parts of the roll patterns???

View attachment 375713

Close-up of the Interstage Wrap to be cut across at the black arrows and shifted to line up the 2 red dots. The lower red dot is on an umbilical attachment point (?) and the upper red dot is on an access panel (?) which should both be lined up as on the real Sat V.

View attachment 375714
That's a nice way to show the issue, and is consistent with what Chris shows on his blog.

#### DeltaVee

##### HV Arcas, AT F67
So here is what I don't quite get about this little 'flaw' in the interstage wrap... if you look at the box cover photo... the tunnels are in their correct relative position... Obviously the one used for the box cover was "right"...

#### ThirstyBarbarian

##### Well-Known Member
So here is what I don't quite get about this little 'flaw' in the interstage wrap... if you look at the box cover photo... the tunnels are in their correct relative position... Obviously the one used for the box cover was "right"...
The pic on the box might just be a rendering.

#### Araize01

##### Well-Known Member
Can anyone tell me the length of the bt-101 tube used in the 50th anniversary apollo 11?. Thanks.

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Can anyone tell me the length of the bt-101 tube used in the 50th anniversary apollo 11?. Thanks.
24.75", same as the old kit.
Same flimsy BT-101 tube.

#### OverTheTop

Ok. So two of these are costing me around $200USD (for the pair), including shipping to Australia. They ship tomorrow from AC Supply. I would have liked to get them from a local store but they are not even on the list from the wholesaler . #### afadeev ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Ok. So two of these are costing me around$200USD (for the pair), including shipping to Australia. They ship tomorrow from AC Supply.

I would have liked to get them from a local store but they are not even on the list from the wholesaler .
Wow, that's pretty rough on shipping.
But if you've never build one before, it's worth it!

a

#### Araize01

##### Well-Known Member
24.75", same as the old kit.
Same flimsy BT-101 tube.
Now for another question. What's the length of the bt-80 tube used for the S-IVB third stage?

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Now for another question. What's the length of the bt-80 tube used for the S-IVB third stage?
It's 8.75".
Are you trying to piece-meal replicate the kit, scale it, or what?

#### rocketguy101

##### Well-Known Member
Tubes lengths for Estes kits can be found in this reference from Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe. Kit 2157 is on pg 25 (30 of the pdf)

#### Araize01

##### Well-Known Member
It's 8.75".
Are you trying to piece-meal replicate the kit, scale it, or what?
I'm cloning it from other part sources. All I need to know is, the length of tube left after its inserted into the S-II to S-IVB transition. In other words, how much of the tube is left exposed?

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
Mine have arrived today! Can't wait to get them home and have a look in the box.

##### Well-Known Member
Hello all. I'm Jay Chladek and I came up with the wrap fix. It does work and looks good when done. Here are some other tidbits:

Glue for the wraps: I utilized Bob Smith Industries Finish Cure Epoxy brushed on. This is not thick like a glue. Instead this is a thinner grade, almost liquid, intended for brushing on surfaces like foam to bond wood skins to them. It works nicely for the wraps as you get decent working time and they dry nice and hard when fully cured after about 24 hours. I went a bit conservative on my first application, only using it in the centers of the wraps and thin CA to tack down the edges. But as I got more confident, I used the finish cure more and more. To help apply even pressure to the wraps while they dried, I used rubber bands.

Plastic Weld Glue: These wraps are rather thin and not all plastic weld glues will work with them effectively. I tried Ambroid Pro-Weld in one spot and it is way too hot, distorting detail way too easily. Plastruct Plastic Weld (orange bottle) seems to work nicely for the fin fairings and the fins. I can brush the stuff on for a good bond, yet it doesn't bite into the plastic wraps too hard to distort it, provided I don't touch it while it dries.

Wrap detail reinforcement: Not sure what this will do to COG issues, but with the wraps being so thin, I was afraid the large protrusions such as the ullage motors and APU fairings would get crushed if I wasn't careful. So I back filled them with two part Epoxy Putty. In my case it was Aves Apoxie Sculpt, but Milliput can work fine and it sounds like JB Weld can also be used. If and when I get around to flying mine, I will go for the bigger Estes motor as I want to make sure she doesn't get marginal in stability. The back filled fairings are nice and sturdy now and should survive what abuse I can throw at them. I also used some putty on the back edges of the fin fairings to give them some durability during construction and landing (just on the bottom edges).

Centering rings: Yes, they appear to be a hair too small and slide a bit loosely in the body tube. Not a deal breaker though when glued in properly. But, I found the wood glue I used on the rings as it dried caused the outside of the body tube to shrink where the glue joints were. So it does require a bit of filler on the tube to get things leveled off. My primers of choice are Tamiya brand spray and liquid primers. I use the standard gray primer for filling the body tube wraps (with brush applications of liquid primer to build up in the deep spots) and will use Fine White primer over the body and the wraps to help prep the surface for painting. Tamiya primer is designed for plastic models and although it is a lacquer, it should not be hot enough to attack the wraps, provided you don't layer on way too much during a spray session.

The wrap modification: Others have already talked about the modification I came up with. When I found the flaw on my rocket, I immediately informed Estes, suggesting they post an addendum fix for the instructions. At least it sounds like they are mentioning it in conversations with customers. That is a good thing. I doubt they will fix the wraps as plastic molds can be expensive. But if you make the cuts and center everything from the S-II/S-IC interstage ring on down in regards to details that line up with the gantry swing arm umbilicals, the fix works. Based on what I can see, this Estes kit is the most accurate Saturn V kit out there in regards to exterior details. It is even more accurate than most plastic models with the exception of the oversized fins for flight.

Now those looking for additional references on the wrap details and paint patterns can look at the following site for reference: https://apollomaniacs.com/apollo/saturnv_menu_e.htm

All major Saturn V details were the same on all the rockets. Nothing changed position as the gantry swing arms had to attach to the rockets in the same spots. Apollos 4 and 6 had 8 ullage motors, 9 through 14 had 4 and Apollos 15 through Skylab had no ullage motors on the interstage ring.

I'll post images of my work once I have figured out the file uploads.

##### Well-Known Member
Here is an image of the wrap after the cut is made. This is simply the image from the instructions with a little quick and dirty Photoshop. Align the umbilical access point on the S-IC just below the access door on the interstage ring. You might need to cut the bottom wrap into two sections to make sure the stringers line up properly at the original point where the wrap ends are supposed to meet, but it is an easy thing to do.

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##### Well-Known Member
This image shows how the wrap should look after the cuts. The yellow tape was just there to act as a place holder while things dried.

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##### Well-Known Member
Another angle of the same modification. The wraps above the cut line up with the orignal seam line. The wraps below line up with the moved wrap's seam line.

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##### Well-Known Member
I've started my build of the new Estes kit and adding the wraps is close on the horizon. Everyone seems to be doing the painting after the model is (mostly) built. This involves a lot of masking. Would life be any easier if the wraps were painted before they're attached? Or is that just opening a new can of worms?
I don't recommend painting the wraps first at all. The paint may not flex like the wraps do and it could be a major mess. You are better off gluing them on, fixing all the surface issues on the model, primer and then paint.

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update on the wraps for this Jay. Just started building mine a couple of days back. Great info!

#### hutch

##### Well-Known Member
Are there any wraps or decals available for the service module, to make it more realistic? Instructions just call for it to be pure silver, without the white markings....

##### Well-Known Member
I don't know of any wraps out there. I'm almost to that point in my build and I am going to try layering on cut pieces of thin cardstock (with thin tape strips in some spots) to represent the SM details. It will take time, but I think the results will be worth it. Another thing I am going to do is see if I can disguise the eyelet on the SM tube to look like one of the two scimitar antennas the SMs all carried.

As for decals, head on over to the CultTVman.com hobby shop and order up a set of 1/96 Saturn V decals from Space Model Systems (SMS). The decal line from Rick Sternbach (most well known for his work in the Star Trek shows) features meticulously researched markings for the Saturn V and Apollo spacecraft in various scales. The 1/96 Saturn V set originally intended for the Revell kit contains markings for the Saturn, LM and SM. Due to the scale differences, the larger markings probably won't work. But, all those little stencil markings found on the vehicles should fit fine as the scale difference isn't all that noticeable. I'm using them on my model when the time comes.

Here is a link to the product. Currently it looks like they are out of stock. But I expect a restock to come soon as these are going to be hot sellers. https://www.culttvmanshop.com/Saturn-VApollo-196-scale-bundle_p_896.html

#### Araize01

##### Well-Known Member
Are there any wraps or decals available for the service module, to make it more realistic? Instructions just call for it to be pure silver, without the white markings....
Stickershock23.com has a complete set of stickers for the Estes Saturn V, including a wrap for the sm.

#### Ted Curtis

##### Well-Known Member
Does anyone know if there is a Saturn 1B capsule/nose cone available. I have an old version built in 70's that I am restoring and an upgrade to the capsule would be great Thanx.. Sorry if this forum is just meant for the V but thought I would ask....

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