Estes 1/200 Scale RTF Saturn V

Discussion in 'Low Power Rocketry (LPR)' started by JumpJet, Jan 10, 2019.

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  1. Jul 29, 2019 #331

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    Glad you chimed in here Dave, I restrained my reply in an effort to stay on point, but you are absolutely correct! He is also wrong about “catching their lightweight fluffy Model Rockets as they descended gently under their parachutes”, although I :) at the description. I’m confident no one of authority at the NRA or TRA would ever recommend it. If his club does they should stop. And again the TRA SLP addresses this practice…

    E.3. Do not attempt to catch a rocket as it approaches the ground.

    As a section and prefecture we will almost always defer to the more restrictive rule (policy) across either code especially in matters of safety. Regardless of code E.3 makes sense a) the chute could detach from rocket as it was approached, b) a motor could still be hot and c) even under chute the rocket can still cause injury. Just ask the young man that was taken to the hospital for stitches at NSL 2016 when he was struck, across the eyebrow, by a small model rocket descending under chute. Note: This is especially important for the Sat V, the subject of the thread, with its thin plastic fins.
     
  2. Jul 29, 2019 #332

    Arsenal78

    Arsenal78

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    Estes violated their own rules and the NAR rules with this kit. They could’ve easily made it with a short 24mm mount for a C11 or D12 and also put a motor mount tube in it. They rushed the kit and skimped out on the safety. They knew this and they don’t care. If I were running a NAR launch and someone came up to me with that on a C motor and wanted to launch it, they would not be allowed to fly it.
     
  3. Jul 29, 2019 #333

    Ez2cDave

    Ez2cDave

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    Who makes those kits ?

    Dave F.
     
  4. Jul 29, 2019 #334

    Ez2cDave

    Ez2cDave

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    In all fairness, that is a Tripoli regulation . . . Tripoli has nothing, formally, to do with anything other than HPR.

    Catching "Model Rockets" is permissible, because they are not governed by the same regulations as HPR rockets.

    Dave F.
     
  5. Jul 29, 2019 #335

    Arsenal78

    Arsenal78

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    mach1rocketry.com. I have a custom fiberglass Estes Fletcher that I got from them
     
  6. Jul 29, 2019 #336

    Ez2cDave

    Ez2cDave

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    Wow . . . Cool stuff !

    Thanks,

    Dave F.
     
  7. Jul 29, 2019 #337

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    Again, that is not true, a common misconception, model rockets are flown at TRA launches all the time under the TRA code/SLP. "Model Rockets" and "Commercial" motors under H impulse are specifically referenced as in "*Distances for certified (commercial) Model Rocket Motors (A-G*). High Power 'F' and ‘G’ Motors (exceeding the limits in the definition of Model Rocket Motor) shall be flown at the ‘H’ distance."
     
  8. Jul 29, 2019 #338

    Ez2cDave

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    I never said that Model Rockets are not flown at TRA launches . . . The "Safe Launch Practices" are not part of any NFPA regulations governing Model Rockets.

    OK - Show me the Tripoli Model Rocket Safety Code, not the HPR Safety Code.

    "Model Rockets" ( under 1500 gr ) are frequently "caught" at NAR launches, even those including HPR flight activity.

    I am going to ask Steve Shannon, Tripoli President, to weigh in on this thread.

    Dave F.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  9. Jul 29, 2019 #339

    Arsenal78

    Arsenal78

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    Here’s my Fletcher on a C12 QJet. BT20 and I just tape the motor in.
    3F1A46BA-4605-4401-8877-8D5458A3C220.jpeg
     
  10. Jul 29, 2019 #340

    DeltaVee

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    One of mine (Estes Phoenix) literally came down right where I was standing. I caught it and got scolded by the lco AND the rso. I know these guys and they know the rules inside and out. Don't catch it.
     
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  11. Jul 29, 2019 #341

    jahall4

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    I just did and that's part of the misconception, there are not 2 seperate codes and/or SLPs, that's obvious from the SLP itself. If there was it would not discuss or cover model rockets with commercial motors. Have you read the SLP? You can ask Steve, but if he says anything contradictory to the TRA SLP then even he would be wrong. It is not my opinion the SLP is clear w/o ambiguity and describes itself as such in the very first paragraph. "Note: The enclosed guidance is a condensed version of Tripoli Safety Codes and policies. The complete Tripoli policies are available at www.Tripoli.org. All Launches:...."
     
  12. Jul 29, 2019 #342

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    Tripoli does not have a model rocket safety code. We expect our members to follow NFPA 1122 for model rockets.
    There is at least one place where we exceed 1122. We require a safe distance of 50 feet between spectators and the model rocket pads.
    A recurring source of confusion is that the Tripoli HPR Safety Codes include safe distances for high power rockets in the A through G impulse ranges.
    The Safe Launch Practice document is meant to be a convenient resource that includes most of the information from our Safety Codes but something stated in it must be interpreted in context of the original source, not broadly applied.
     
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  13. Jul 29, 2019 #343

    Ez2cDave

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    Was that a Tripoli launch or an NAR launch ?

    Dave F.
     
  14. Jul 29, 2019 #344

    Ez2cDave

    Ez2cDave

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    Steve,

    What about catching "Model Rockets" ( under 1500 gr & powered by "G" motors or less ) ?

    For example : An Estes Alpha, under fully-deployed chute.

    Dave F.
     
  15. Jul 29, 2019 #345

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    Dave, Does it say explicitly in NFPA 1122 that it is permissible to catch a "Model Rocket"?

    The point... If it does, it is in conflict where by TRA would trump or "exceed" per the TRA SLP E.3 "Do not attempt to catch a rocket as it approaches the ground."

    For the reasons I have explained and provided an example of, why would any individual or club want to risk injury even if it is only stitches? Why argue for taking an unnecessary risk? Are you suggesting that the fun of catching a rocket makes it worth the risk?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  16. Jul 29, 2019 #346

    Ez2cDave

    Ez2cDave

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    Does it say that it is not ?

    Dave F.
     
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  17. Jul 29, 2019 #347

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    I don’t have time to check right now but I believe that the rule prohibiting catching a rocket is taken from NFPA 1127 and not from either the THPRSC or TRARSC. If that’s correct then it applies only to HPR and not model rockets. I’ll check later and get back to you. It might be something that we change even.
    It’s not a great idea.
     
  18. Jul 29, 2019 #348

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    That is the right question. If 1122 doesn’t explicitly prohibit something it’s permissible. Working from a zero permissions foundation and adding phrases to permit certain actions is extremely repressive.
     
  19. Jul 29, 2019 #349

    BABAR

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    I haven't been fortunate enough to be in a location where I could launch with Tripoli guys. I have relatives in Idaho and hope someday to coordinate a visit with a launch. So I can't/won't speak toward Tripoli rules.

    Regarding NAR Safety code, the rules are different between High Power and Low Power.

    High Power code as follows : https://www.nar.org/safety-information/high-power-rocket-safety-code/
    13. Recovery Safety. I will not attempt to recover my rocket from power lines, tall trees, or other dangerous places, fly it under conditions where it is likely to recover in spectator areas or outside the launch site, nor attempt to catch it as it approaches the ground.

    I've always thought the rule on the High Power codes was to prevent Darwin Award winners from catching big hunking rockets before said rocketeers contribute to the gene pool.

    Low Power as follows: https://www.nar.org/safety-information/model-rocket-safety-code/
    11. Recovery Safety. I will not attempt to recover my rocket from power lines, tall trees, or other dangerous places.

    There is nothing in the Low Power code that restricts catching a low power rocket. (To be fair, NAR isn't advocating it as a good idea, either!)

    The low power rockets I really get nervous about people catching are those with the plastic fin cans. Those can break off and have sharp edges, and I have personally seen a kid try to catch an Estes AstroBeam (hard plastic fin can) and get a cut on the palm of his hand even without fin breaking.

    The other risky item is the motor hook, the newer ones terminal end is directed straight down and it is relatively SHARP. I intentionally bend the tip of this upward to avoid risk if this lands on someone.

    I don't have the new Saturn V, but I suspect the plastic fins on this kit could cause an injury even if descending under a good chute. I believe some posters have said their rockets suffered broken fins on recovery. That isn't a defect of the rocket (can happen with any rocket, which is why my scratchers have forward swept fins), but it does suggest that for this rocket "catching it" is a particularly bad idea.

    I have caught a few of my low power birds, mostly helicopters, the others with balsa fins (and again most of my birds have forward swept fins anyway), and I still have all my appendages.

    Again my hopes are that this thread has brought attention to making sure the Saturn V rocket fliers get their motors properly seated and IF they choose to fly on the recommended C6-3 motor, pick a day with calm winds and a nice slick launch rod!

    Straight Trails!
     
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  20. Jul 29, 2019 #350

    jahall4

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    Steve, then yes, if it is permissible to catch a model rocket then the SLP needs to be corrected.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  21. Jul 29, 2019 #351

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    Steve, So 1122 trumps the TRA SLP E.3 which says "Do not attempt to catch a rocket as it approaches the ground."?
     
  22. Jul 29, 2019 #352

    Ez2cDave

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    Boo-Yah . . . Case dismissed !

    LOL !

    Dave F.
     
  23. Jul 29, 2019 #353

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    No Dave you misunderstand, since 1122 is silent on catching rockets then the SLP applies much like it does for "distances" which Steve has already explained does in fact exceed 1122. If E.3 was not intended to apply to models then it would/should say that. E.3 "exceeds" 1122 in the same way. That is what Steve is talking about revising on the SLP.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  24. Jul 29, 2019 #354

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    No, what I said above is that the original source for the information in the SLP must be considered when using it. No new requirements have been or may be created within the SLP. The only places where requirements may be created are NFPA 1122, NFPA 1127, the HPR Safety Code, and the Research Safety Code.
    The source for the prohibition on catching a rocket is NFPA 1127:
    4.10.4 No attempt shall be made to catch a high power rocket as it approaches the ground.

    Thus, the Tripoli Safety Codes do not prohibit catching model rockets. The SLP does not change that and will need to be corrected. It’s still a bad idea to catch a rocket especially if running to catch it.
     
  25. Jul 29, 2019 #355

    Ez2cDave

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    Steve,

    Thank you for the excellent clarification . . . I believe that Tripoli should craft a document, clearly explaining that "Model Rockets" may be caught, and notify all Prefects and Members.

    So, once again . . . Boo-Yah, appeal denied !

    Facts trumps "crap", every time.

    Dave F.
     
  26. Jul 29, 2019 #356

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    Then the the SLP can't exceed the distances either and that should be corrected too.
     
  27. Jul 29, 2019 #357

    jahall4

    jahall4

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    Dave, Again you miss the point, until the SLP is changed that is what needs to be followed. An attorney would have a field day with your interpretation in case of a liability claim. They would whip out the SLP and ask you why you didn't follow you own assoc rules which are safer and avoid a risk you said was okay.

    Steve, As a club we have always discouraged if not outright prohibited "catching" rockets. Any reason as a prefecture we can't continue to do so?
     
  28. Jul 29, 2019 #358

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    Where does the SLP exceed any of the source materials?
     
  29. Jul 29, 2019 #359

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    Not at all. We always support the authority of a local Launch Director or RSO to exceed our Safety Codes where they feel it’s appropriate.
     
  30. Jul 29, 2019 #360

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    And again, the rules are what’s printed in the source material. The SLP is a well intended convenient compilation and condensation but does not have the legal authority of the Safety Codes or NFPA requirements with respect to being a Tripoli Sanctioned Launch. That’s not an excuse for it being wrong but a guidance for how it should be used.
     

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