ERROR Found In Peter Alway's TALOS Scale Data

[Ez2cDave]

While looking at Peter Alway's TALOS drawing, I noticed that a STA value is missing, for the airfoil high point at the Fin Root.


The entire drawing may be suspect because in Peter's Super Chief II drawing ( ROTW 1999 Supplement ) the Fin Root is 54.00" . . . BUT, in Peter's TALOS drawing, the Fin Root is shown as 51.00".

My data, created by Viktor Minakov, (deceased) shows the following dimensions for the TALOS Booster Fin Dimensions are in millimeters. Unforunately, it does not show the length of the Fin Root.




If Peter, or anyone else has the correct value, or can verify my "numbers" , please post !

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Also, Peter's data for the Black Brant XII shows the TALOS Booster Fin Root length as 50.3" . . .

So far, we have Fin Root lengths of 54", 51", and 50.3" for the TALOS Booster, depicted in Peter's data . . . Which, if any, is accurate ?

BTW - Minakov DOES give a dimension of 1291mm ( 50.827" ), as the length of the TALOS Fin Root.

 

[James Duffy]

Minakov was widely known for pulling data out of his ass. Shoot, the poor guy was trapped behind the iron curtain for most of his life. None of his drawings should be considered accurate without additional verification.

Peter's work has the odd error here and there, but he adheres to strict academic standards in his research and drawing. When faced with differing figures between a Minakov and an Alway drawing, always trust the Alway drawing unless otherwise independently verified through an independent third source.

You may have uncovered an actual error in Peter's drawing, Dave, and that's good. Let him know. But don't use a Minakov drawing as the basis for a change.

James

 

[Ez2cDave]

You may have uncovered an actual error in Peter's drawing, Dave, and that's good. Let him know. But don't use a Minakov drawing as the basis for a change.

James

James,

With 2 different dimensions cited by Peter, for the same piece of hardware (TALOS Booster), there is no doubt that there are, at least, 2 errors (including the missing STA), in those drawings. They cannot all be correct and, possibly, all of them are inaccurate.

Minakov was only cited for comparison, since the 1291mm (50.827") is "close" to Peter's 51" dimension, not to be "taken as Gospel".

Are you aware of any source of accurate dimensions for the TALOS booster, other than the ones mentioned here ?

Dave F.

 

[CTimm]

The 51" root length comes directly from McDonnell as well as US Navy source documents.
The Super-Chief in my 1999 Supplement is 51" as well.
The BB-XII fin at 50.3"most likely came from a NASA-sourced drawing.

 

[PeterAlway]

I'll have to take a look at those. I don't recall where which dimensions came from, though there are sources cited for the BB XII and the Super Chief that I can look up. It could be contradictory sources or it could be flubs on my part. Since my next booklet should be Naval missiles, that's actually something to look for relatively soon.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Peter, Chris & James,

Tomorrow, I am driving down to South Carolina to measure the TALOS missile on display at the Patriots Park Naval & Maritime Museum, in Mt. Pleasant, SC ( 4 1/2 hours, each way, for me ) . . .

My intention is only to measure the Booster, Fins, get detailed photo's, and record rivet / hatch patterns.

My interest in the TALOS missile pertains to the Booster itself, not the upper stage.

Dave F.

 

[PeterAlway]

I have two dimensioned source drawings of the Talos-- both are professional-style drawings from either the Navy or the manufacturer (people who have been kind enough to send me scale data in the past have often lost the bibliographic info, and I didn't look hard for that last night). One gives a chord of 51.0, and one gives a chord of 50.83, as I recall. I have a set of NASA or Bristol (I didn't check this afternoon) drawings for the Black Brant XII, and it gives a *theoretical* fin chord of 51.0, but it shows a rounded leading root corner of the fin, as well as a quirk of the position of the root edge that makes the actual root chord a touch under 51. I have an Aerojet drawing of the Super Chief that gives a root chord of (this is from memory, but I rechecked this afternoon) of 55.4.

I've checked my Super Chief drawing file as well as a print version of the 1999 supplement, and I get 51" there.

I'm going to spend some quality time with the NASA/Bristol drawing before I change the BB XII drawing from STA -2.3 to STA -2.83, but that's where the error would be. The leading edge station is specified at STA 48 by a NASA drawing. As for the Talos missile and Super Chief drawings, I will leave them rounded off to 51 unless I find a source that tells me which corners move which way.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Well, the trip to SC was a BUST . . .

After driving just over 300 miles, I discovered that the TALOS was "missing" . . . After asking a couple of questions, I learned that it had been transferred to a new location, the Indiana Military Museum in Vincennes, IN . . . Almost 750 miles, each way, from my house . . . That "road trip" is NOT happening.

www.suncommercial.com/news/article_6783fc83-1efb-5321-9f40-32cf18746a42.html

It was a BIG disappointment . . .

Dave F.

 

[Troy3003]

I'm occasionally up that way, a little over an hour away. If you are not in a hurry I will try to get up there this fall. I'll contact you before hand to find out more specifics on what you need.

 

[Ez2cDave]

I'm occasionally up that way, a little over an hour away. If you are not in a hurry I will try to get up there this fall. I'll contact you before hand to find out more specifics on what you need.

That is great . . . Thank you very much !

BTW - an extra "ring" was added to the base of the Booster to secure a cosmetic "cover" in place. The Fins actually overhang the rear of the Booster "tube" by 2.3" ( according to Peter Alway's drawings ).

I was only going to measure the Booster, not the entire TALOS.

Measurements I would have taken . . .

I was going to divide the Booster into 4 quadrants ( Left Side, Right Side, Top Side, & Bottom Side ) . . . Note that Rivet & Bolt patterns are NOT identical, from Quadrant to Quadrant !

(01) Overall length of Booster ( plus location and dimensions of ALL Seams, Weld Lines, Bolts, Rivets, Access Hatches, etc ) . . . Same for Diameter and varying Diameters.

(02) ALL Fin dimensions ( Root Chord, Span, Airfoil High Points, Tip Chord, Root Thickness, Tip Thickness, Fin Cuff Dimensions, Size, Location, and Number of Rivets, Bolts, Attachment Brackets (plus Spacing between them), etc, etc, etc. NOTE : the Fin Root has CONTOURS and is NOT "straight".

(03) When dealing with Rivets, Bolts, Screws, etc . . . Location, Spacing, Number, Size, Type, etc.)

(04) Location, Width, & Contour of all Flanges and/or Transitions.

(05) Dimensions of Lugs, Fore & Aft ( Note : there are TWO sets of these, one on the Top, one on the Bottom side )

I have images that I have found online and will make them all available to you, in advance. I also created sheets for recording data, as the measurements were taken . ( attached below )

I will send you a PM today . . .

Many, many thanks !

Dave F.

 

[Troy3003]

I'll definitely exchange contact info with you before the visit, and get all the data recording sheets printed.
From what I see on their website I should plan a full day to take it all in. Very nice looking exhibits, and quite a large diversity of items.

 

[whitewolf126]

Dave F. It has been a few years since the last post. Did you get the information you were looking for?

 

[Ez2cDave]

Dave F. It has been a few years since the last post. Did you get the information you were looking for?

No . . . See post #11.

The exhibit has been moved out of state, shortly before I drove down to measure it.

 

[whitewolf126]

No . . . See post #11.

The exhibit has been moved out of state, shortly before I drove down to measure it.

I live about 30 minutes from Military Honor Park in South Bend. I am up that way every couple of weeks. I will help out how I can. I don't have measurements right now. I do have some recent photos.

 

[Ez2cDave]

I live about 30 minutes from Military Honor Park in South Bend. I am up that way every couple of weeks. I will help out how I can. I don't have measurements right now. I do have some recent photos.

Wow . . . Many thanks !

Those are some really clear images and, fortunately, this is a display that does not have "caked-on" layers of paint obscuring details.

I am, primarily, interested in the dimensions of the Booster . . . This is for another "project" that I am working on ( Super Chief II ).

A Super Chief II is an Astrobee 1500, boosted by a Talos booster . . . Instead f the "traditional" Astrobee 1500 nose cone, the Super Chief II has a Payload Section with an Ogive nose cone.

Abundant data is available for the Astrobee 1500 ( Aerojet ), limited data is available for the Talos booster . . .

Highly-detailed data is available for the Super Chief II, from Aerojet . . . At least one modeler has obtained that data but, unfortunately, due to ITAR regulations, a non-disclosure agreement was signed, preventing the public release of that data ( personal use only ). Furthermore, after speaking with that modeler, I contacted Aerojet and found, unfortunately, that due to ITAR regulations. they are no longer releasing that data, at all.

There are only two areas of the Super Chief II that I would need data on . . . The Interstage Adapter and the exterior dimensions and details of the Payload Section.

Dave F.

 

[whitewolf126]

Wow! The detail is awesome. I have a lot to learn! I was away from model rocketry for about 45 years. I got bored during retirement. I went back to building model rockets.

I am planning on building a scale Talos. Starting with a single stage first. I will work my way up to a larger and more details after I prove it flight worthy.

I worked for Bayer Healthcare AG after Bayer purchased the Bendix Missile plant. When I first started back in the 80s, there were some engineers and executives that came over from Bendix. One had a large picture of the Talos hanging in his office. At the time, I had no clue I would get back into model rocketry.

I see you are a level two NAR. Maybe you can help me with a couple of questions. The Talos booster is a fair distance from the main sustainer. Would the booster motor ignite the second stage? I am thinking not. I don't know how to solve this either. Also, I feel the the wings up front may be an issue for stability.

My plan is to measure at least some of the booster this Wednesday depending on the weather and available time.

Don

 

[Ez2cDave]

I see you are a level two NAR. Maybe you can help me with a couple of questions. The Talos booster is a fair distance from the main sustainer. Would the booster motor ignite the second stage? I am thinking not. I don't know how to solve this either. Also, I feel the the wings up front may be an issue for stability.

Hi, Don,

If you are talking about using BP motors, the answer is "yes", provided that your lower motor mount is designed to reach the upper stage motor. That is called "gap staging". It also depends on the distance involved and the size of the Booster motor. See the PDF file at the bottom of this post ( attached ).

If you are talking about APCP motors, the answer is "no" . . . The upper stage would have to be ignited electronically.

As for Stability, the CG location has EVERYTHING to do with making it stable . . . This is Chris Flanigan's TALOS, at NARAM-50, in 2008.

Dave F.

 

[whitewolf126]

Wow! That is awesome! It will take me a while to get to that level. I didn't realize someone else built one. It is so detailed. Especially the nose cone.

Thank you for sharing the pictures.

Don

 

[Ez2cDave]

Wow! That is awesome! It will take me a while to get to that level. I didn't realize someone else built one. It is so detailed. Especially the nose cone.

Thank you for sharing the pictures.

Don

Chris Flanigan used a 3D printer to make the highly-detailed parts of his TALOS.

Dave F.

 

[cwbullet]

The original poster is gone and has been banned by multiple forums. He was a valued member of our forum for many years and I thank him for his contributions. He is not coming back.