Engines which require Level 1 certification

[Bob in Phoenix]

Is there a list of F impulse engines which require Level 1 certification? Same thing for G engines.
I shall guess (oh no) that any engine with an averge thrust ovet 80 Newtons requires Level 1.
Thank you.
Bob in Phoenix

 

[jimzcatz]

That and any sparkies.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I know of no such list but I think the manufacturers mark the label saying they are high power or model rocket motors.

 

[KennB]

Here's the combined certified motor list. The motors with the (HP) before them are considered high power.
http://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/CombinedMotorsByImpulse.pdfOver 80N average thrust, sparkies and hybrid are counted as HP motors.

You need certification to fly these motors but can only certify L1 on H or I impulse motors.

 

[UhClem]

I know of no such list but I think the manufacturers mark the label saying they are high power or model rocket motors.

It is a requirement from NFPA 1125. The Aerotech HP-G75M for example.

 

[Great Hobbies]

That list doesn't show average thrust, so you can't really use that as a guide as to what is high power or not. I believe there are only a couple of G-glass motors that actually require L1 certification to launch, as stated above. I don't think there are any Fs that are in that same classification.

 

[Antares JS]

I don't think there are any Fs that are in that same classification.

I had to look this up since I had only heard of this and am not a CTI flyer, but CTI makes an F85, F120, and F240.

 

[SecondRow]

That list doesn't show average thrust, so you can't really use that as a guide as to what is high power or not. I believe there are only a couple of G-glass motors that actually require L1 certification to launch, as stated above. I don't think there are any Fs that are in that same classification.

Sure you can. HPR motors are designated as such in the rightmost column. For example, Cesaroni’s F50 (on page 6) is an HPR motor because it’s a sparky, which is designated by the “!” in the first column (for Type). I don’t fly CTI motors, so I have no idea if this motor is still readily available. But you can definitely use that list to determine what motors require HPR certification.

As added examples, CTI’s F85, F120 and F240 (page 7) are also HPR, because their average thrusts are all >80N.

 

[Great Hobbies]

Sure you can. HPR motors are designated as such in the rightmost column. For example, Cesaroni’s F50 (on page 6) is an HPR motor because it’s a sparky, which is designated by the “!” in the first column (for Type). I don’t fly CTI motors, so I have no idea if this motor is still readily available. But you can definitely use that list to determine what motors require HPR certification.

As added examples, CTI’s F85, F120 and F240 (page 7) are also HPR, because their average thrusts are all >80N.

Indeed, you're correct. Missed that column. Also, I didn't realize that there were F reloads in that size.

 

[SecondRow]

Indeed, you're correct. Missed that column. Also, I didn't realize that there were F reloads in that size.

An F240 sounds like fun. What’s that? Max 0.16 second burn time? Blink and you’ll miss it.

EDIT: Turns out it’s a .28 second burn time, because I’m bad at reading.

 

[Great Hobbies]

Mmmmm...thrusty!

 

[Bat-mite]

No one has mentioned "Exceeds 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant." I don't know if there are actually any F or G motors out there with that much propellant mass, but there could be.

All of the above are legal requirements. But keep in mind that at any club launch, you will need a TRA level 2 or 3 cert to launch an EX motor of any size, even an A.

 

[mikec]

An F240 sounds like fun.

Unfortunately, Vmax propellant is no longer being produced.

 

[Antares JS]

No one has mentioned "Exceeds 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant." I don't know if there are actually any F or G motors out there with that much propellant mass, but there could be.

All of the above are legal requirements. But keep in mind that at any club launch, you will need a TRA level 2 or 3 cert to launch an EX motor of any size, even an A.

There are H motors that come in *below* 125 grams of propellant (and don't require a waiver!) so I also doubt any F and G motors break that limit.

 

[Bat-mite]

There are H motors that come in *below* 125 grams of propellant (and don't require a waiver!) so I also doubt any F and G motors break that limit.

If it's an H, then it has > 80N avg thrust, which is still a class 2 rocket. But agreed on the propellant mass. F240 only had 30g of propellant.

 

[Antares JS]

If it's an H, then it has > 80N avg thrust, which is still a class 2 rocket. But agreed on the propellant mass. F240 only had 30g of propellant.

Dang it, I fact checked myself and you're right. In my trying to separate what is a Tripoli/NAR club requirement versus an FAA legal requirement, for some reason I thought the thrust was the former.

 

[Bat-mite]

Dang it, I fact checked myself and you're right. In my trying to separate what is a Tripoli/NAR club requirement versus an FAA legal requirement, for some reason I thought the thrust was the former.

Wait a minute. I am so confused! NFPA-1127 lists the HPR motor specs as:

• > 160 Ns impulse (so any H)
• > 80N avg thrust
• > 62.5g propellant

But FAA-101 sets the propellant weight at 125g (twice that of NFPA) for a class 2 rocket. That's kind of weird.

I guess the FAA will bust you for slightly different reasons than the fire marshal.

 

[mtnmanak]

There are a whole slew of G motors that are HP, but since, as noted above, VMax is no longer produced, for all practical purposes, the only F motors that are HP that are currently sold are the CTI F50 and F85, correct? I understand NAR has to keep them on the list since there are probably a bunch of them "out in the wild", but if someone wanted to know what motors they could buy commercially that require an HP cert, just the F50 and F85 fill the bill.

 

[heada]

FAA != NFPA != USPS

Shipping regs are sep from waiver regs are sep from cert regs.

In most cases its a most restrictive set of all the regs. There is a great chart someone put together that has a great breakdown if when you need an FAA waiver and when you need a HPR cert and when you need both....but I'm too lazy to search for said chart right now.

And from memory, the old AT G75J was a G motor over the NFPA propellant weight limit but not over the FAR 101 limit so you had to be L1 certified but didn't need a waiver.

 

[Antares JS]

*throws hands up in frustration, tosses legal/rule book into the fire, goes back to just flying H motors at club events with waivers.*

 

[Steve Shannon]

If it's an H, then it has > 80N avg thrust, which is still a class 2 rocket. But agreed on the propellant mass. F240 only had 30g of propellant.

I think you’ve already retracted this but just to be clear not all H motors have more than 80 Newtons average thrust.

 

[samb]

...
There is a great chart someone put together that has a great breakdown if when you need an FAA waiver and when you need a HPR cert and when you need both....but I'm too lazy to search for said chart right now.
...

Found here: https://www.soarrocketry.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/HPR_metric9c.pdf

"someone" = Doug Sams. Thanks Doug.

 

[dr wogz]

And don't forget to mention clusters:

2 F motors = a G.
3 F motors = 1.5G, so, requires L1

each letter is twice the last.. 1G = 2F = 4E = ...

 

[SecondRow]

And don't forget to mention clusters:

2 F motors = a G.
3 F motors = 1.5G, so, requires L1

each letter is twice the last.. 1G = 2F = 4E = ...

See the chart @samb posted. Clusters have a different impulse threshold for high power. Clusters below 320 Ns may still be low power. 3 F motors can’t have more than 240Ns, so the flight may not require L1, so long as the other requirements are met as well.

 

[dr wogz]

See the chart @samb posted. Clusters have a different impulse threshold for high power. Clusters below 320 Ns may still be low power. 3 F motors can’t have more than 240Ns, so the flight may not require L1, so long as the other requirements are met as well.

thank you, I stand corrected!

(I don't do clusters, my bad..)

 

[smstachwick]

Full document in this thread.

EDIT: I see the .pdf has been posted above. Oh well. At least the image is more accessible on mobile devices.

 

[bad_idea]

Wait a minute. I am so confused! NFPA-1127 lists the HPR motor specs as:

• > 160 Ns impulse (so any H)
• > 80N avg thrust
• > 62.5g propellant

I believe the 62.5g requirement went away in some NFPA revision in the 2010s, though the cap of 125g total propellant in a model rocket remained.

 

[Homer_S]

Another way to look at it: for production motors, if a seller lists the motor as needing L1. While they aren't the authority, they probably don't want to pay fines either. Take a peek here, select the 24mm motors or 29 mm motors and sort by total impulse. The burn time is just to the left so you can do the > or < 80N rather easily. Propellent mass is to the far right.

Homer

 

[UhClem]

I believe the 62.5g requirement went away in some NFPA revision in the 2010s,

It didn't go away but was increased to 125g.

 

[Halvey]

Thanks for that list Doug Sams. Much easier. "Also tosses rule book in the woodstove".