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loopy

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Wow - pretty early for April Fools day, isn' it?
 

The EGE

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The only plausible explanation I can think of is that these are somehow 'collectables' and worth a lot. I mean, these are early kits, with a K-11 and 800 and 1200-series numbers. To a collector, they ight plausibly be worth that money, though I doubt it.

To me, no kit is ever worth more than a little more than the original price (corrected for inflation). If it's a collectable and worth a lot, then I'll clone it, because I built kits to fly, not to sit.
 

MarkII

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180448385854&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

This guy is seriously deluded. I emailed him about how over priced this is and he said he got a new "price list" that says the HoJo is worth $230!! I replyed, asking him if this was in Hong Kong dollars.

I await his responce with baited breath and no, I didn't eat any worms:rolleyes::hohoho:
Well, if he threw in an actual NIB Camroc to go with the Camroc Carrier, and each of the "K" kits were signed by Vern and Gleda and all of the kits were signed by their respective designers, then the value of the lot would be up there. But even if it included all of that, a BIN price of $1300? That's why I rarely look for rockets on eBay.
 

stickershock23

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THere are a lot of cool hard to find rockets in there. look at the star blazer. thats OLD.. don;t think they are worth 600 but they are nice
 

MarkII

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The only plausible explanation I can think of is that these are somehow 'collectables' and worth a lot. I mean, these are early kits, with a K-11 and 800 and 1200-series numbers. To a collector, they ight plausibly be worth that money, though I doubt it.
I'm not sure, judging from the photos and the descriptions, that the "K" kits are actually Vern Estes-era (1960's). The listing says that they are 1970's vintage, and it gives the Damon numbers for the Honest John, the WAC Corporal and the Drifter along with their K numbers. If I were to ever contemplate dropping that kind of cash on a box of vintage kits, I would want to be able to see them and inspect them myself. And I wouldn't pony up the money and then wait to see if a stranger actually shipped them to me. The current version of the Alpha still carries #1225. But I think I know what you mean - these are all plausibly at least 30 years old. I'm not a serious collector and I don't track the prices of collectible model rocket kits. But geeez! Who would pay that?

MarkII

P. S.: I don't know how old you are, EGE, but for folks who are above a certain age who were flying model rockets back then and can remember seeing such kits when they were new, collecting them and saving them in unopened condition is quite understandable. The market for these items is rocketeers who are at least a few years older than the kits! ;)
 
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jorpet

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Amazing. To be of real value a collectable should be non-replaceble. As was mentioned if they were signed by the designer and the orignator of the Estes brand, they would be irreplaceable.

As rockets, ho hum. They still make cardboard, balsa and the rest, so creating a brand new version of the same old rocket isn't hard to do. If you think the packaging makes it worth that much, I have some old christmas wrapping from the 80's I'll sell for just a couple hundred.
 

MarkII

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Amazing. To be of real value a collectable should be non-replaceble. As was mentioned if they were signed by the designer and the orignator of the Estes brand, they would be irreplaceable.

As rockets, ho hum. They still make cardboard, balsa and the rest, so creating a brand new version of the same old rocket isn't hard to do. If you think the packaging makes it worth that much, I have some old christmas wrapping from the 80's I'll sell for just a couple hundred.
Wanting to collect them is understandable, but no one would just go and pay any price in an online sale for one. There are limits.

MarkII
 

jadebox

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I guess y'all haven't seen what sealed Estes kits have been selling for on eBay.

Looking at Gerry Fortin's site, here's approximately what others have paid for some of those kits:

#1227 - Honest John - $150.00
#1226 - Arcas - $200.00
#1293 - Black Brant II - $150.00
#1211 - WAC Corporal - $140.00

That's over $600 for just the first four listed kits.

I think the seller could do much better selling the kits individually rather than as a lot. Collectors want specific items. But, someone may buy this collection with the intent of breaking it up and reselling what they don't want.

-- Roger
 
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JonathanDunbar

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I guess y'all haven't seen what sealed Estes kits have been selling for on eBay.

Looking at Gerry Fortin's site, here's approximately what others have paid for some of those kits:

#1227 - Honest John - $150.00
#1226 - Arcas - $200.00
#1293 - Black Brant II - $150.00
#1211 - WAC Corporal - $140.00

That's over $600 for just the first four listed kits.

I think the seller could do much better selling the kits individually rather than as a lot. Collectors want specific items. But, someone may buy this collection with the intent of breaking it up and reselling what they don't want.

-- Roger

Roger,

My take on this and other auctions:

From Gerry's site:

.....................................................AVG High Low

Semi Scale Honest John K-27 #1227 109 204 59

Semi Scale Arcas #1226 122 244 40

Black Brant III #1293 62 154 30

Wac Corporal K-11 #1211 94 138 56

Astron Alpha #1225 47 66 25

Astron Drifter K-14 #1214 122 311 46

Astron CamrocCarrier #1266 45 105 24

Mini-Brute Star Blazer TK-31 #0831 28 39 15

Mini-Brute Combo Javelin & Super Flea #0815 31 62 18

--------------------
.........................................AVG HIGH LOW
.............................Totals $660 $1323 $313



Based on this, yes the average of the aggregate of kits, IS $600+. But also note, the
low is only $313. The entire lot minus the plastic nozzle on the Black Brant could be cloned for under $70, and someone really diligent could do it for
under $50!

So if you are buying these models to built and fly, I would recommend AGAINST buying this auction.

If you are a collector, is this worth it? Well based on Gerry's site, yes. But realize the high and
averages are skewed due to possible reasons:

1)Shill bidding (seller has a separate account that pushes the price up so that that the winner has to pay more)

2)Emotion of the auction. From my experience, you can easily add 20% to the final price just from the
emotional last few seconds of the auction (this is why I use 3rd party snipers. Yes a win less, but when I do win,
I pay a more reasonable realistic price)

3)A collector, "MUST HAVE IT AT ANY PRICE!". I have done this in the past, and paid far far FAR more that what
the kit should have cost because I needed it to fill a hole in my collection.

Personally, I would only pay $30 - $40 per kit, but then I have multiples of these kits, and I am not starting out
new like some collectors.

Is the price high? Yes. The seller obviously values the dollars he will receive more than the "collectibility"
of the kits. Are the kits collectible? YES!!! Skill level kits are getting harder to find, they make a great
way to start your model rocket collecting; as I did, and they bridge the gap between the "K-Kits" of old and the
Damon era of model rocketry. Heck, some of the skill level kits are repackaged K-Kits complete with K-Kit instructions
and parts.

If the seller had started the auction at $9.99, and offered REASONABLE shipping, and factoring in today's economy
and the fact that budgets are depleted due to Christmas shopping, I would have expected the lot to close $275 - $350.00
if the auction was held honestly; no shilling by seller and no games by bidders who bid with no intention of paying.

$600 is over priced, but if you have the money, can pay your rent/mortgage, utilities, food, ect., and still have
$600 left over for this auction, God bless you because every time auctions like these take place, my collection grows
more and more in value :) If I were to use Gerry's site as the absolute value of my collection (High-AVG price), my
collection would be worth multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars ... and I know it ISN'T!

Jonathan
 
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stantonjtroy

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Seriously, I understand the nostalgia for many collectors; I got my first rocket in 74, but come on. This is just another case of someone trying to make a "collectable" for the sake of cashing in. I have seen the prices on Ebay and with VERY few exceptions I can't understand it. I wonder if the people who pay these nutso prices even fly rockets. Over $100 for an Estes Saturn V I can understand, I personally wouldn't pay it but I do understand it. Centuri Little Joe II, same deal. These were highly sought after when they were new and in 60's and 70's dollars, they were rather expensive; But this guy is (and I mean no disrespect) off his nut.
Maybe I'm just of a different breed. A rocket in a bag or a box isn't a rocket, it's parts. If I could get my hands on a Centuri KS-8 Little Joe II (the 1/45th scale version) tonight ( and believe me I wish I could) I'd be building it tomorrow. They were made for flight. Here endeth the rant.
 

JonathanDunbar

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Seriously, I understand the nostalgia for many collectors; I got my first rocket in 74, but come on. This is just another case of someone trying to make a "collectable" for the sake of cashing in. I have seen the prices on Ebay and with VERY few exceptions I can't understand it. I wonder if the people who pay these nutso prices even fly rockets. Over $100 for an Estes Saturn V I can understand, I personally wouldn't pay it but I do understand it. Centuri Little Joe II, same deal. These were highly sought after when they were new and in 60's and 70's dollars, they were rather expensive; But this guy is (and I mean no disrespect) off his nut.
Maybe I'm just of a different breed. A rocket in a bag or a box isn't a rocket, it's parts. If I could get my hands on a Centuri KS-8 Little Joe II (the 1/45th scale version) tonight ( and believe me I wish I could) I'd be building it tomorrow. They were made for flight. Here endeth the rant.
Troy,

And PLEASE understand I am not arguing just giving comparison:

Action Comics #1, 1938. Fine to Mint condition, expect $1,000,000.00+ at auction; but its just a stupid old comic book!

Inverted Jenny Stamp, 1918. Fine to Mint Condition, also expect $1,000,000.00+ at auction; but its just an old misprinted postage stamp!

A 1909 Horas Wagoner Pittsburgh Baseball card, sold at auction for $2,300,000.00; but is just a STUPID old Baseball card from some dude who died in 1955 and has long been forgotten!

These are just examples of how people pay many dollars to connect with the past.

I am sure in the year, 2169, there will be a person who pays six figures for one of our $100 - $300 dollar model rocket kits of today. Why? Well simple, as that will be the price they will have to pay in order to connect with our present.

You think the pricing on 40+ year old model rocket kits are wicked, then you should do a search on model airplane kits from the 1920's, and 30's. Those prices make a model rocket kits look like a fantastic value at ANY price!

Model rockets and the era that they spawned from and the technology they mimic and paralleled, are historical; a slinky isn't.

Jonathan

P.s. If you really did get your hands on an KS-8 LJII, I would recommend you hold it, wait for Roachwerks to re-release their LJII, build and fly that one, and sell your KS-8 not for $100.00; you might want to get $400.00 - $600.00 as these are prices for them covering the last few years. Trust me, the Roachwerks version will offer greater detail and motor selection. KS-8 is all about nostalgia.
 
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JoeG

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This guy is only "off his nut" if he doesn't sell them. If he does, he's a pretty shrewd cookie.

If you think it's too much.....don't bid on/buy it. Seems simple to me. These are his possessions and he can ask whatever he wants. He may not get it but he can ask.

I sell some stuff on ebay and it always makes me wonder why someone would write to me telling me my price is too high. I have never had anyone tell me my price was too low and offer me more.

This stuff is way overpriced in my opinion but I am not forced to bid on it.
 

dave carver

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Jonathan, I got a reply back from the guy. Said the HoJo was "listed" at $230. $27 higher than what you have listed as the high for the model. I'm not replying to ask where the "list" is at but I'm thinking it's somewhere around Pie and In The Sky Ave.
 

Bone Daddy

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The simple truth is that anything is worth the price that someone is willing to pay.

My wife and I love watching the Antiques Roadshow. We attended the show in Dallas last year. I was crushed to learn that my set of Burger King Star Wars glasses from 1977 were worth only about a $1.50 each or as the appraiser pointed out (honestly, I'm not making this up) as much as a Star Wars collector was willing to pay. What gets us is how valuable things we would consider to be ugly junk turn out to be. For example, the uglier the pottery (to us anyway), the more it's worth. But then we don't collect pottery.

I am frequently reminded that the 1964 strat I bought for $250 many years ago and long since traded off is worth $20,000 or more while the 1961 Jazzmaster I hung on to is worth about $1,000 even thought it's cost more new and is a much higher quality guitar. It actually costs more to buy a 1964 reissue strat. If only Jimi Hendrix had played a Jazzmaster.............

So the moral of the story? I'm going to be hanging on to that 1983 vintage in bag Alpha complete with 1983 25th Anniversary Edition catalog, Model Rocketry the Space Age Teaching Aid and other educator specific collateral, IMPORTANT-PRICE LIST EFFECTIVE 9-1-'83 PLEASE READ! flier (their bold and caps) and original shipping box until it's worth enough that I can retire in comfort in the Florida Keys.

If that time is now, please send me a PM with your best offer.................

alpha pix.jpg
 

stantonjtroy

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Valid points all, and I take no offence at a countering opinion. I guess I would have to agree that they are ultimately worth whatever someome is willing to pay though as was pointed out, it won't be me. Said it before, I guess I'm just of a different breed. Merry Christmas and God bless Semroc.:D
 
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rokitflite

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I want the "Black Brat" he has listed... I've always wanted kids. Even if they are a little troublesome. :D
 

rokitflite

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Valid points all, and I take no offence at a countering opinion. I guess I would have to agree that they are ultimately worth whatever someome is willing to pay though as was pointed out, it won't be me. Said it before, I guess I'm just of a different breed. Merry Christmas and God bless Semroc.:D
I heard that Troy just sent him an offer of $585.00! :eek:;)
 

JonathanDunbar

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I want the "Black Brat" he has listed... I've always wanted kids. Even if they are a little troublesome. :D
Scott,

I think one 'black brat' is enough! So I can mail you my adoption papers tomorrow! :grinch:

Jonathan
 

RocketT.Coyote

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I sell lots of non-rocketry-related stuff on Ebay. Then use some of the profit to purchase rocketry supplies. It amazes me when people ask me to post items at buy-it-now price, then they don't bid. They don't realize the low starting price is to attract buyers. I would lose money if it sold for that price. It's a calculated risk.

A sad note. Some of my customers have had to either withdraw bids, not complete the transaction, or even return an item. Few bother saying anything when they stiff me. About one a week now.
:tree:
 

JonathanDunbar

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SHHHHHHHH!!!!:blush:
Troy,

The price is down to just $500.00 :santa-smile:

If I were starting out, that would be an OK buy with an hold of 5 years or longer.

Someone must have talked sense into him... he may have gotten the $600 starting but he is now more apt to get $500... maybe. I will keep an eye on how this one closes, but I am NOT bidding ... now if they were K-Kits it would be bloody for sure, and no, I wouldn't be the winning bidder, but I would bid.

Jonathan
 
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jorpet

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And when the Zombie Apocalypse occurs and humanity is hang by a thread...


This will all be worth so much kindling.
 

luke strawwalker

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This guy is only "off his nut" if he doesn't sell them. If he does, he's a pretty shrewd cookie.

If you think it's too much.....don't bid on/buy it. Seems simple to me. These are his possessions and he can ask whatever he wants. He may not get it but he can ask.

I sell some stuff on ebay and it always makes me wonder why someone would write to me telling me my price is too high. I have never had anyone tell me my price was too low and offer me more.

This stuff is way overpriced in my opinion but I am not forced to bid on it.
AMEN and amen! Well said and something a lot of folks seem to lose sight of... the difference between cost and value. That, of course, if a personal decision...

"You will find, that many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view." Well said Obi-Wan...

For some folks, that kit, the one they always wanted but never got, or crashed, or messed up, or stored in the attic and never built until after they moved in the sixth grade and somehow it got lost, well, for them, it may well be worth a price that many of us without such a connection would find absurd. For those who place value on collecting the kits and amassing as many original examples of the product from the time, it's worth serious coin...

For those of us who think of an unbuilt kit as wasted potential and a 'collection of parts' then not so much... Nothing inherently wrong with either viewpoint...

As was wisely stated, if this fellow can get the asking price, then he could be called 'crazy like a fox' as aptly as just plain 'crazy'. If not, well, he'll have to rethink his strategy. For me and more than a few others, we'd consider him nuts, but he only needs ONE guy willing to pay his price... I'd say the odds are fair to good in his favor.

Actually, I HAVE had a customer tell me I was charging too little and actually pay me more. I was doing custom baling for him and did a good job at $12 per bale, and he said "that's too cheap, here's $13-- most guys are charging $15-20." I sure didn't say no! It also got me to thinking about my pricing structure, supply and demand considerations, overhead and costs, value of labor, and a lot of other things that come into play... I still worked a little cheaper than everyone else, since I had older equipment that didn't produce quite as nice a finished product, but I figured I didn't have to charge MUCH less, since I had enough jobs to keep me busy and I wasn't going to 'corner the market' anyway, or even wanted to.

It's all part of the bigger picture, which constantly changes anyway... :) OL JR :)
 

Fishhead

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A 1909 Horas Wagoner Pittsburgh Baseball card, sold at auction for $2,300,000.00; but is just a STUPID old Baseball card from some dude who died in 1955 and has long been forgotten!
Horas Wagoner. No wonder he was forgotten after playing in the shadow of Honus Wagner for all those years. :rolleyes:
 

Commonwealth.Net

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Econ 101

Any item is worth the price paid.

If unsold you have a point.
If sold he will prove to be very smart.

It is always easier to Lower a Price than to Raise a Price.

My 2 cents is the kit is worth $100-$150
 

dave carver

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Well, your not going to believe this. He emailed me asking for what value to put on some kits he's going to put up for sale!

I havn't replied, I don't really know what to make of it:p

Anyway, here's the rockets:


2 centuri nike smoke KS-15
2 MERCURY REDSTONE #5131
1 PYTHON FIGHTER #5358
1 BUCK ROGER STAR FIGHTER #5335

Any ideas? And let's be realistic about it. Those 2 Centuri Nike Smoke's are intriguing:cool:
 

JonathanDunbar

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Well, your not going to believe this. He emailed me asking for what value to put on some kits he's going to put up for sale!

I havn't replied, I don't really know what to make of it:p

Anyway, here's the rockets:


2 centuri nike smoke KS-15
2 MERCURY REDSTONE #5131
1 PYTHON FIGHTER #5358
1 BUCK ROGER STAR FIGHTER #5335

Any ideas? And let's be realistic about it. Those 2 Centuri Nike Smoke's are intriguing:cool:
Dave,

My opinions follow:

Nike Smokes - Red Face Card with checkerboard pattern at base, $75 ... I wouldn't pay anymore then $50 for one. If its the later White background, maybe a little less. I think with BMS parts you can clone it. Enerjet Nike Smoke with smoke system, well that Nostalgia is going to cost you extra! $150 - $250 ... probably closer to $250. remember, N O S T A L G I A :hohoho:

Hey someone should find an engineer who worked directly on the Nike Smoke Programs (those white lines you see next to the mushroom cloud of an atomic blast, yep you guessed it ... NIKE SMOKES! They were classified for years when they were used in the Atomic above ground tests) and have he/she sign your kit!!!

Redstones, $100+. Why, because I say so :) Now I am beginning to sound like Bob Craddock or Danny Almond... :santa-smile: The Centuri scale kits were some of the best around. I believe 2.0 inches in Dia.? Nice for display, LPR and MPR. Nice Mercury capsule molding.

Python ... and Buck Rogers ... the Rogers was remade into an Estes release, and those are like $20 - $40... sometimes they get no bids. I believe the Python was re-release by Estes, but I am not into kit collecting much past the early 1980s... I think someone will fill in those blanks.

Just have him start the bidding at $0.01 and watch the fun! He will make money, not a bazillion dollars but he will be able to fill up his gas tank and take someone to dinner on what he will make. :snowman:

Jonathan
 
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