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bachsta

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im not totally sure where to put this so ill trry here. anyway what are some of the most durable kits (stock built) and by durable i mean able to handle the most power/hardest impacts for lets say under 150$
 

jetra2

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Well...

The Polecat Aerospace kits come fiberglassed with fiberglass nosecones and 1/4" birch ply fins. No mods needed for more strength, according to Andy.

Jason
 

bachsta

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ok so in your opinion what are the 2 most durable of andy's kits?
 

jetra2

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That's not exactly a valid question. If you want strength, well, all of them are going to be strong, their almost completely fiberglass (body tube and nosecone). Looking at your price range, you could get a Thumper Jr. like I did, which will be very strong, or almost any other of his kits will be strong. Keep away from anything with long, swept back fins like the Skeeter, it's prone to breaking.

What kind of rocket are you looking for?

Jason
 

lalligood

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Originally posted by jetra2
That's not exactly a valid question. If you want strength, well, all of them are going to be strong, their almost completely fiberglass (body tube and nosecone). Looking at your price range, you could get a Thumper Jr. like I did, which will be very strong, or almost any other of his kits will be strong. Keep away from anything with long, swept back fins like the Skeeter, it's prone to breaking.

What kind of rocket are you looking for?
Jason makes an excellent point about the fins, but it would help greatly in providing recommendations if you could give us an idea of what you are looking for in a kit or rocket.

Take a look at PML kits too. As long as what you plan on flying stays under .85 Mach, I would recommend one of their kits with Quantum Tubing. It's tough and resilient stuff. Plus you get G10 fins.

HTH,
 

edwardw

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You have to remember also that the force on a rocket is going to be equal to the force the motor is putting out when you fly it. A key to making any rocket survive when you fly it is good building techniques. Take time to align the fins straight so they won't flutter. Use the correct adhesives for the job. Sometimes overbuilding a rocket can cause more stress on the rocket than the strength gain you get out of it. In the Vendors section there is this thread Paper M rocket about a paper LOC rocket that was flown on an M. Recovery is another story. Zippers, early/late deployment, flying horizontal and not vertical can cause damage when your chute comes out. Fiberglassing helps with some zippers, but choosing the right delay/electronics and flying conditions also helps minimize zippers. As for general handling bumps and bruises - you just have to be careful with them.


Edward
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by bachsta
im not totally sure where to put this so ill trry here. anyway what are some of the most durable kits (stock built) and by durable i mean able to handle the most power/hardest impacts for lets say under 150$
The LOC Weasel is an incredibly tough bird for having no reinforcement. The stubby fins set forward from the tail are well protected from ground hits. The body is very strong, and being so narrow is even tougher in terms of wall thickness to size ratio. The Vulcanite is as well built, but being larger doesn't have quite the strength per size.
 

bachsta

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well i definitley like clipped delta fins and polecats thumper jr. and 4 in v2 are intriguing. also i guess what im looking for is a midpower possibly lvl1 highpower that will be able to take whatever motor i want to put in it with out shredding or anything if built carafully. and why is pml QT bad for flight over mach? also i would like a kit that will be able to break mach with out trouble if i decide to push it. any suggestions?
 

r1dermon

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LOC onyx is quite durable. built with cheap 5 minute epoxy, not finished, flew it on an F50 landed under half chute hard, buried a fin, was fine, put it up on a G80(really cool watching this stubby rocket fighting the wind) landed under half chute somewhere, never found it. but it stayed together. are you looking for MPR LRP or HPR?
 

r1dermon

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well, for MPR, aerotech has GREAT quality and durability. im not sure about all, but most of their models use the through the wall fin mounts, LOC body tubes are just phenominal, they're extremely thick, even on the small MPR birds. those are the two major manufacturers of MPR birds. for HPR, i also like LOC quality, i havent owned one, but i've handled them and seen them fly, they're good. PML, if you get the phenolic tube and glass it, will be extremely strong. and with G10 fins through the wall mounting, they're awesome. i ahve no experience with YANK rockets, but i've heard great things. same with BSD.
 

bachsta

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im kinda looking for specific kits. how about the horizon series by bsd are they strong enough to handle mach+. ive also been looking at the hyper loc in the hpr category. and as fas mpr goes ive had my eye on the onyx by loc as well as the legacy. the mustang by aeroteck also looks nice how are the quality on those kits (can they break mach repeatedly with out damage?)
 

r1dermon

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well...you'd probably need a really high impulse H or I to break mach in an onyx. it sims around 340mph on a G80. the mustang will also need a high power motor to break mach with. the loc Aura will break mach on a G. G200 would put it over mach, the G80 puts it about 650mph, so pretty close. im going to put my aura up on a G80 saturday, we'll see how she does. the onyx was my favorite bird. im probably going to buy another and modify it like crazy. maybe a payload bay and a 38mm mount. the mustang i think gets almost 600mph on the G80. but its weighed down more than the aura, the aura is 8oz and the mustang is 11 i think. plus it has 4 fins, more drag. but, i'd say the mustang is more durable than the aura, and it also is easier to spot in the sky. i shot my aura on an F20 about two weeks ago and i totally lost it in BLUE skies. then i saw the ejection and followed it down to the ground. lucky. that sims to 2700ft on an F20. so its really nice. and a wide range of motors. the least i'd throw in it is an E9, and it flies unbelievably well on the E30's.

if you want a cheap rocket that will plow the skies on a G80, check out the apogee aspire. sims around 800mph(over mach) on that G80. and flies to over a mile on an apogee F10, although, those motors are EXTREMELY hard to find.
 

bachsta

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its not that i nescesarily want to push the rocket past mach i just want to know that it will be able to stand up to mach+ forces so if theres a bad ejection or the chute doesnt deploy it will survive because i seem to have really bad luck when atempting to launch on anything over an E so if something goes wrong i wnt to still be able to launch it again wiht minimal to no repairs. i also want the rocket to be able ot grow with me meaning when i by highpower kits that launch on high impulse motors i want to be able to launch the birds i get now on the same high power/impulse motors so i guess im looking for versatility also.
 

r1dermon

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well, thats tough. most MPR kits arent designed to fly on H and above motors. but i can tell you, the onyx has stood up to a G80 so far. just make sure its got a 10 second delay, a really big field, and a really clear sky. the AURA's biggest motor so far is the F20, which it came down without incident. very very nice launch. although, the previous launches resulted in hard landings, i'd suggest getting a 14" chute. ditch the streamer, it comes is way too hot. the onyx comes with a chute, but really, that thing could land without any recovery system and still be undamaged. lol. both these kits are extremely cheap, but the only one i would consider risking an RMS casing for a HPR flight in would be the onyx. i've heard of people successfully certing on the AURA, but i think its crazy. its nutty to put a G80 in it as it is....lol. i'd suggest finding a rocket that is designed to fly on HPR motors, but WILL fly on high impulse G's. like the YANK bullet. it can fly on a G80, i think it gets about 1,000' or something like that. but its really made to go up on H's.
 

lalligood

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Originally posted by bachsta
its not that i nescesarily want to push the rocket past mach i just want to know that it will be able to stand up to mach+ forces so if theres a bad ejection or the chute doesnt deploy it will survive because i seem to have really bad luck when atempting to launch on anything over an E so if something goes wrong i wnt to still be able to launch it again wiht minimal to no repairs. i also want the rocket to be able ot grow with me meaning when i by highpower kits that launch on high impulse motors i want to be able to launch the birds i get now on the same high power/impulse motors so i guess im looking for versatility also.
Building a rocket that can handle the stress of breaking Mach doesn't necessarily translate into being able to handle a rough deployment well. The two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive.

PML's QT, while unable to handle the stress of > .85 Mach, is extremely resilient and is considerably more zipper resistant (not zipper proof) than LOC paper tubes (FWIW, same stuff used by BSD). I have had 2 not so good flights with my PML Phobos... First one was on a G40-7W. I was the receiver of a "bonus delay" that was a good 3-4 seconds too long. Quickly plummeting towards terra firma, it finally ejected maybe 300ft from the ground. Damage? None. Nada. Zip. Second time was a G64-7W flight. Delay was more like 3.5 seconds. Nose cone came out but everything recovered intact. Damage report: None. Nada. Zip. The Phobos is a good MPR/HPR rocket that'll fly on pretty much any G, H, or even smaller I motors. Better have a windless day & good eyes if launching one on an I though! I used it for my Level 1 cert on a Pro38 H153. Built it stock per PML's instructions & added an Aero Pack retainer & 38-29 motor adapter. See my review on EMRR for more information.

A guy in my club has launched several QT based PML kits with ridiculous motors in them. Out of 4 that went Mach+, only one came back intact. The others rained back on us in pieces. That's what you get when you don't follow instructions... :rolleyes:

OTOH, I did my Level 2 on a BSD Thor (like many other TRFers I might add) and a Pro38 J285. Nothing but picture perfect flights with mine, however, I did see a guy in my club launch his Thor on a I300. Super short delay & zippered the tube for a good 6". Ouch. :eek: There are a number of folks on here who successfully certed with the BSD 4" Horizon. Clean, simple design that won't go out of sight (in fact it stays quite close) on a H128, H153, or H180.

Just some food for thought...
 

bachsta

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it seems i have to be extremely specific for you guys so:
1. whats the biggest motor that can be used in a thumper jr
2. whats the biggest motor that can be used in a polecat 4 in v2
3. same question 4in horizon
4. same question 3in hyperloc
5. same qustion loc onyx
6. " aerotech mustang
7. " loc legacy
8. " pml cirrus
9. " loc forte
10. out of those rockets which is the most resisitent to damage
 

r1dermon

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are you talking about the PML cirris dart? the extreme altitude one? i think that can use a J at most, and down to an F. lol. the J puts it up around 10,000' if im not mistaken. LOC onyx can probably take a high power RMS 29mm load, but i wouldnt, a G80 would be a lot better for that rocket. trust me, at apogee, you really can't spot it. same with a loc forte. most resistant to damage....it all depends on the conditions. anything that is glassed is going to be quite damage resistant, therefore you can rule out the onyx, the forte, the legacy, the mustang. if that cirrus dart comes with the choice of phenolic, then that would be an extremely durable kit. but it all depends on how you build them. i've seen people run a strip of glass around the BT right at the end of it near the nose cone. this was to resist a zipper, can't say how it worked, it never zippered, but then again, it might not have zippered anyway. just a precautionary method. the mustang inherintly has strong fins, because they are mounted through the BT. which is always a plus, and adds a ton of strength. but depending on how you build them, each one could be just as durable.
 

bachsta

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ok what if each of them was built completely perfect then which one would it be
 

r1dermon

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well, if every one of them are built per instructions, then i'd have to say the most durable is the aerotech mustang(i cant comment on the first couple, as i dont have any experience with polecat or BSD.) and the biggest motor that should be put in that is the G80. and with a G80 in that, plan on a huge field. also consider a streamer. heh. the smallest motor i'd use in that would probably be an E9. D12's can be used, because they will have more initial spike, but they just wont burn as long. but the G80 would put this rocket somewhere between the eath and moon, in quite a jiffy.
 

lalligood

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No single rocket can do everything well. They all have their advantages & disadvantages. I think we can dissect each of the kits you mentioned till we're blue in the face. They can all be built poorly & they can all be built well, but ultimately how they're built is up to YOU.

There's a time when you have to quit asking questions & just do it. I believe that time is now.
 

bachsta

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no epoxy is the answer to the worlds problems and is not used nearly enough. and i dont think im quite ready to make a decision yet ill probably talk to vendors and the companys first
 

r1dermon

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epoxy is a last resort. built it right the first time. epoxy is heavy and will weigh your rocket down. you've got a wide range of kits there, i'd suggest going with either MPR or HPR, but start by narrowing your wishes to one or the other. its a lot easier then to determine which kit is right for you. there are huge differences in building technique and recovery systems of HPR rockets, MPR is high, fast, cheap, easy to build fun. HPR is not cheap, most motors cost in excess of 30 bucks for one reload, most rockets are over 100 dollars, and you always need an FAA waiver to launch them. with such huge differences between the two classes, its a lot easier to pick one route and go it.
 

bachsta

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well seeing as im not certified im guessing i would want something that is light enough for bigger mpr motors yet strong enough for lvl 1 and possibly lvl 2 flights
 

r1dermon

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here's some advice. build a lvl 1 bird. you're not going to find ANYTHING that will fly on a lvl 2 motor AND mpr motors and is still a good choice for a cert. because chances are, on a rocket light enough for a MPR motor, a J whatever, will either shred it, or unless your at blackrock, recovery is going to be quite difficult. not only that, but its got at least 10,000 feet to break itself. MPR is a whole different class than HPR. there ARE HPR birds that can take both lvl 1 and lvl 2 motors. such as the LOC warlock. that will easily accomodate a J, and a K would make for a fantastic flight. but it can be certed on an I motor as well. however, at over 10 lbs, you'd need like, 10 F20's to safely get it stable. my advice, get a good cheap MPR kit, like a LOC onyx, or LOC aura or something, and build your lvl 1 while you have fun with the MPR bird.
 

cbutler

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You mentioned the LOC Forte in one of you previous posts as well. That is a good kit for the MPR/HPR cross over. I've got one and it has been a great workhorse. Durable, stable, flies great everytime.

Interesting thing on this kit was that the package (and LOC web site, for that matter) says this is a 29mm kit. But mine came with at 38mm mount instead. Don't know if that was a fluke or what, but it was fine with me.

I did make a couple of modifications to mine in that the stock shock cord and mount were unacceptable to me (a big version of Estes shock cord mount) so I installed an eyebolt on the top CR and used about 6 ft of kevlar coming out of the rocket, then the stock 9ft of elastic (connected this to the kevlar w/ a d-ring). Also installed "Kaplow Klips" for motor retention.

Since mine has a 38mm mount, I got a PML adapter to fly it on 29mm too. It'll fly on Gs (LOC says Fs too but I've never flown it on one) and Hs just fine. So you could get some test flights out of it, then go for your cert flight.
 

urbanek

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Originally posted by bachsta
it seems i have to be extremely specific for you guys so:
1. whats the biggest motor that can be used in a thumper jr
2. whats the biggest motor that can be used in a polecat 4 in v2
3. same question 4in horizon
4. same question 3in hyperloc

5. same qustion loc onyx
6. " aerotech mustang
7. " loc legacy
8. " pml cirrus
9. " loc forte
10. out of those rockets which is the most resisitent to damage
First off, what do you mean by big? I will limit myself to AeroTech White Lightning propellant motors because they are what I'm most familiar with.

1: The biggest motor that will fit in the motor mount.
2: The bigglest motor that will fit in the motor mount.
3: AeroTech K550 (if it has a 54mm mount)
4: AeroTech J415.
5: Aerotech H128 (anything bigger gets too long)
6: Built stock: G64.
7: Aerotech I200 (good luck finding it again).
8: sames answer as 2.
9: Aerotech I200
10: Most damage will occur when the rocket hits the ground, transportation, and storage. Mostly, it depends on how durable the tube is. In order of durability: Fiberglassed Phenolic, Fiberglassed Paper, Quantum Tube, Phenolic tube, Paper tube. Therefore, in order, the durability of the rocket is:
1: Polecat Thumper Jr or Polecat V2
2: PML Cirrus dart
3: All the others mentioned.

urbanek
 
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