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Dr. Zooch Saturn V

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Delta-IV

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I am about 80% complete on my first Dr. Zooch kit build. Any comments/suggestions on motor use, flight characteristics, etc. would be appreciated.

I am about to tackle the F1 engine nozzle build up. So far a pretty good kit. I did deviate a bit with the wraps on the BT's, I scanned the wraps and then added the lenghts of the open areas, added USA/United States/Flag markings and then re-printed on 8 1/2 X 11 "sticker paper". Only paint required will be on the LES top portion and fins.
 

Delta-IV

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Photos below:

Saturn V - Zooch.jpg: Complete ready to fly

Saturn V - Zooch-a.jpg Fins and Fin fairing ready for install

Saturn V - Zooch-b.jpg Top of the stack

Saturn V - Zooch-c.jpg prior to F1 Engine/Fin/Fin Fairing install

Saturn V - Zooch.jpg


Saturn V - Zooch-a.jpg


Saturn V - Zooch-b.jpg


Saturn V - Zooch-c.jpg
 

Rocketcrab

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Hey.........there's something wrong with that first picture. Wait, don't tell me....I'll get it............I'll get it..........aha! The launch umbilical tower is scratchbuilt - it doesn't come with the Dr. Z kit, right? Am I right?? :p

FWIW, the Saturn V was my first Dr. Zooch kit. Wierd story with a happy ending. The build went smoothly - first flight was in breezy conditions with a B6-4. Yes, I whimped out and didn't use a C6 until flight #2 several weeks later in calm conditions. It was a Quest C6-5, and the Saturn went unstable. Hmmmmm......then I used an Estes C6, figuring the Quest motor may had something to do with it. Nope, it went unstable again. A lot of head scratching followed, because I knew I'd followed the directions to the "T". So I e-mailed Wes, and he eventually asked me to send the model to him. Turns out the pre-loaded nose weight wasn't placed correctly, and he sent me another kit, no questions asked. You sure as heck can't beat THAT for standing behind your product! :)
 

poke44

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Motor to use = C6-5 and watch it fly!

and on the engine nozzles... i lost 2 so far but i made a new one, doesnt look as good, and pinned them in with some toothpick stuck up through the middle and glued.
 
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Dr.Zooch

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Turns out the pre-loaded nose weight wasn't placed correctly, ...
Yep, very unusual for that rocket to go unstable- so his issue really got my attention- for reasons unknown (such as, perhaps, my toddler pulling at my shirt sleve while I'm working) the weight was a full 1/4 inch aft. VERY bad for the Apollo Saturn V. That weight has to be exact. Now, the Skylab Saturn V will not have that problem because the natural CG is almost an inch farther forward.

Best compliment I've had about this kit so far is "It flies like an Alpha." THAT I consider to be very high praise.

You can use any engine on this except an "A" and it flies best IMHO on a C6-7... there's just a lot of walking involved.;)
 

foose4string

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I don't think I've flown it on anything other than a C. It will tip off a little bit in stiff breeze...but still quite stable. Calm day, it goes up and down like an elevator. Note the flag in the background...

SaturnV-Zooch.jpg


Saturn-V-Red-Glare.jpg


Saturn-V-second-flight.jpg
 

Delta-IV

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Yep, very unusual for that rocket to go unstable- so his issue really got my attention- for reasons unknown (such as, perhaps, my toddler pulling at my shirt sleve while I'm working) the weight was a full 1/4 inch aft. VERY bad for the Apollo Saturn V. That weight has to be exact. Now, the Skylab Saturn V will not have that problem because the natural CG is almost an inch farther forward.

Best compliment I've had about this kit so far is "It flies like an Alpha." THAT I consider to be very high praise.

You can use any engine on this except an "A" and it flies best IMHO on a C6-7... there's just a lot of walking involved.;)
Thanks, I tend to go for the "gold" right off the bat anyway..a C it is!

So Zooch what is the recommended CG? I tend to build on the heavy side still.
 

Dr.Zooch

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Thanks, I tend to go for the "gold" right off the bat anyway..a C it is!

So Zooch what is the recommended CG? I tend to build on the heavy side still.

Using the bottom edge of the main body tube as datam and measuring without an engine installed, but with recovery equipment (no wadding). the CG should be 7.8 inches from the datam.

Someone can probably direct you to a Rocksim for it too. (I don't release mine.)

Hope that helps
 

Dr.Zooch

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Carl- did you get this one from Dennis at the last TTRA launch? Dang, you
build quick! My Zooch Sat-V has been sitting in the box for close to 3 years...
3 years! Geee... that's back when I was doing the "free yogurt in every kit" promotion... must be gettin' pretty ripe by now.:rolleyes:
 

luke strawwalker

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3 years! Geee... that's back when I was doing the "free yogurt in every kit" promotion... must be gettin' pretty ripe by now.:rolleyes:
HEHEHhehehehehe... That's funny... LOL:) :D

So THAT is the stink coming from the box over there... Dang it, you and your 'surprise gifts'!!! :D Shoot there's some kind of 'green fluid' dripping on the floor under the shelf!

Have a good one! OL JR :)
 

Delta-IV

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EMRR has the Sat V (and a few others)
http://www.rocketreviews.com/rocksim/zooch_saturnv.rkt
Not sure how accurate these are...


Carl- did you get this one from Dennis at the last TTRA launch? Dang, you
build quick! My Zooch Sat-V has been sitting in the box for close to 3 years...
Yes, I bought it along with a Sheri's Mercury Redstone...I was taking advantage of a "prime opportunity" the wife was getting hungry and ready to head home, so she said "okay, do it so we get headed home".

The MR will be a summer build, so I thought I'd get the Saturn ready for the next ROCK launch..but now that will be in May...I'll really be ready then. :)
 

Delta-IV

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Using the bottom edge of the main body tube as datam and measuring without an engine installed, but with recovery equipment (no wadding). the CG should be 7.8 inches from the datam.

Someone can probably direct you to a Rocksim for it too. (I don't release mine.)

Hope that helps
Well after taking a building break to concentrate on my HPR stuff for awhile, I have really completed the build.

I measure 8.0 from the aft for my CG with out a motor and a mass of 2.3 oz.

Saturn V - Zooch-complete.jpg
 

Delta-IV

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I don't think I've flown it on anything other than a C. It will tip off a little bit in stiff breeze...but still quite stable. Calm day, it goes up and down like an elevator. Note the flag in the background...
Great photos, I bet it jumped off the pad pretty darn quick.

My ILC is set for May 2, 2009 the Launch Site: R-O-C-K in Oviedo Florida.
 

foose4string

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Thanks....yeah, a C motor really gives it a jolt off the pad. A "B" probably gives a real nice flight. I should probably try that sometime. Probably get some better in-flight shots that way.
 

rosko_racer

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I don't think I've flown it on anything other than a C. It will tip off a little bit in stiff breeze...but still quite stable. Calm day, it goes up and down like an elevator. Note the flag in the background...
Nice Saturn flight pictures, Craig. You are right, I have flown my DrZ's SatV only on a C, C6-5 to be more precise. I would not risk it with a B. On the other hand, DrZ's Sat 1B does well on a B... have not had the courage to try it with a C... maybe on the next Foosefest... ;) :D
 

Dr.Zooch

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It'll fly on a B... trust me. No risk, just stick one in and push the button- it'll fly just fine.

Interesting story from the very first launch of this rocket. I made two identical prototypes. Did not want to shoot them for the first time at a public launch simply because they were a unique design and I did not know for sure if they'd actually fly. Also, they tend to attract attention and I wanted to keep a low profile for my very first kit until I knew it worked. So, I took the prototypes up to my boyhood home in Michigan and launched them out of mom and dad's back yard. Family activity kept us from setting it up until the last minute the evening before we headed back to MD. Thus at dusk on a very hazy Sunday evening my younger brother and I set up and got ready to shoot. As when I was a kid, my dad was there to witness and my bro. was there to help- it was just like old times and it was the last time my dad was able to be there and shoot rockets with me. Kind of cool that dad's last launch was the first flight of my company's first kit. When I was a kid, dad always liked to say "Now if you could just find a way to make money with those rockets, you'd be gettin' somewhere." So he was delighted when I told him I was starting Dr. Zooch Rockets... after all... he'd given me my very first rocket and helped me launch it back in 1969.

Once set up, I angled the launch rod out over the farmer's field behind the house. My dad said "Yer' not gonna see very much tonight." The haze was thick. I started the video cam and after a brief countdown and crossed fingers- pushed the button. It had a C6-7 aboard- went straight as an arrow and nearly out of sight. The chute popped and it came back toward us, then managed to find the tallest tree in the neighborhood and lodge right in the tippy top.

By the time we got the second prototype set up, it was getting dark, and the mid-Michigan summer haze was still thick. I had changed the launch rod to avoid the tree- I pushed the button and we could only track the boost by the flame- again- on a C6-7 and again straight, but this time fully out of sight. On the video you can her my brother, who'd chased my rockets since he was six years old, say "I'm not chasin' that." No foolin'- it was GONE. Both went much higher and way farther than I'd expected. We saw the second one on the chute for an instant- off in the distance as a shadow, but we never found it. I walked the neighborhood and field boarder for an hour... it was simply gone. The one in the tree hung there into the winter and by spring, mom reported that it too was just gone (anyone on this forum knows how that goes). Still, it said something about the design, that it flew so well that we lost the prototypes.

Fly it on a B rosko... be steely-eyed. Trust me- it'll fly.:cool:
 

luke strawwalker

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That's a cool story... :cool:

Reminds me of the old days around here...

Sorry about your Dad... and it's a shame you didn't get at least one of those back as a momento... :(

Yall take it easy! OL JR :)
 

Delta-IV

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I am happy to report that my Dr. Zooch Saturn V has made it's maiden flight. For good note, I flew it again.

R-O-C-K NAR #622 Launch
Oviedo, Florida

Weather: Partly Cloudy Temp: 85 F Winds: Variable S to SW ~3 to 8 mph

Flight 1:

May 2, 2009
10:36 AM EDT

Summary: Motor used Quest B6-4 and I chose to have the Launch rod straight up for this first flight. Fly out was straight up with no noticable spin weathercocking or wobble. Parachute deployment was made as the tail end of the rocket was sliding back through its ascent smoke trail. Recovery was made with no damage whatsoever.

Flight 2:

May 2, 2009
12:45 PM EDT

Summary: Motor used Quest B6-4 again this time for more data collection. I chose to angle the Launch rod slightly into the wind for this second flight. Fly out was interesting to say the least. At approximately 75 feet, the rocket went unstable and looped a couple of times. The rocket impacted the soft sandy soil grass field a few feet away. The rockets nose was embedded into the ground and was removed with NO damage. Zooch's rockets may be small and ant scale, but it survived the Florida soil in a slowed lawn dart trajectory.



If the chute and wadding should had fell inside the BT to the motor mount, would this be enough to lower the CG too close to the CP? That is my thinking right now as suggested by Brian Coyle. Any ideas from the group or the Doctor?

CIMG7091.jpg


Saturn V - Zooch - Pre-FLT-1b.jpg


101B3201.JPG
 
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jadebox

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Summary: Motor used Quest B6-4 again this time for more data collection. I chose to angle the Launch rod slightly into the wind for this second flight. Fly out was interesting to say the least. At approximately 75 feet, the rocket went unstable and looped a couple of times. The rocket impacted the soft sandy soil grass field a few feet away.
"A few feet away ...." Gee, it seemed closer to me. :)

The "just step out of the way" rule didn't work well when I had no idea which way the rocket was going (and my bandaged foot didn't allow me to move very quickly anyway). Fortunately, there was no damage to myself or the rocket.


Unfortunately, I didn't get any photos or video of the Saturn V in flight, but I did get an excellent series of stills of your Delta IV.

-- Roger
 
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brianc

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At approximately 75 feet, the rocket went unstable and looped a couple of times.

...

If the chute and wadding should had fell inside the BT to the motor mount, would this be enough to lower the CG too close to the CP? That is my thinking right now as suggested by Brian Coyle. Any ideas from the group or the Doctor?
I was thinking about this on the way home from the launch. I wonder if you
just happened into a 'perfect storm' of sorts. The winds at 75 feet (just
above the trees), combined with the thrust dropoff about that moment,
along with the possibility of the chute shifting may have introduced this
instability.



I forget- are you using the stock Zooch chute or a (heavier) nylon one
with a heavy snap link? The stock chute would contribute very little
to a CG shift.
 
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AstronMike

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I am happy to report that my Dr. Zooch Saturn V has made it's maiden flight. For good note, I flew it again.

R-O-C-K NAR #622 Launch
Oviedo, Florida

Weather: Partly Cloudy Temp: 85 F Winds: Variable S to SW ~3 to 8 mph


Flight 2:

May 2, 2009
12:45 PM EDT

Summary: Motor used Quest B6-4 again this time for more data collection. I chose to angle the Launch rod slightly into the wind for this second flight. Fly out was interesting to say the least. At approximately 75 feet, the rocket went unstable and looped a couple of times.



If the chute and wadding should had fell inside the BT to the motor mount, would this be enough to lower the CG too close to the CP? That is my thinking right now as suggested by Brian Coyle. Any ideas from the group or the Doctor?

Its possible an aft movement of the chute could slightly affect the overall CG, but then again, the motor at the aft end is rapidly losing weight when the propellant burns. If anything, this may be a push.

However, since you did angle the rod some and there was some wind blowing, and we all know that a rockets dynamic CP moves forward in an angle of attack situation, maybe this Saturn was barely stable in vertical flight but not when a certain critical angle of attack was reached.

This sort of thing doesnt happen too often, but long ago I had a large glider that boosted straight, but if launched at more than a few degrees from vertical, ended up trying to 'fly' under power, being dynamically overdamped in this case.

Still kicking myself for getting lost and missing such a good glider flying day :mad:
 

Delta-IV

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"A few feet away ...." Gee, it seemed closer to me. :)

The "just step out of the way" rule didn't work well when I had no idea which way the rocket was going (and my bandaged foot didn't allow me to move very quickly anyway). Fortunately, there was no damage to myself or the rocket.

-- Roger
Sorry Roger, yes my rocket finally gave that briefing item that Tom and Robb love to preach a real world use. Too bad I picked the one person who was not quite able to as quickly make that one step to get out of the way.

Thanks for the awesome pics, Ryan had some good ones too.
 

Delta-IV

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I forget- are you using the stock Zooch chute or a (heavier) nylon one
with a heavy snap link? The stock chute would contribute very little
to a CG shift.
Yes I used the stock chute, but I used my normal glob of dog barf . The wading probably weighed twice the weight of the chute.
 

Dr.Zooch

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Flight 2:

May 2, 2009
12:45 PM EDT

Summary: Motor used Quest B6-4 again this time for more data collection. I chose to angle the Launch rod slightly into the wind for this second flight. Fly out was interesting to say the least. At approximately 75 feet, the rocket went unstable and looped a couple of times. The rocket impacted the soft sandy soil grass field a few feet away. The rockets nose was embedded into the ground and was removed with NO damage. Zooch's rockets may be small and ant scale, but it survived the Florida soil in a slowed lawn dart trajectory.

QUOTE]

:eek::y:This rocket should NEVER, fly like that. My first suspicion would point toward the Quest motor or the way that the spacecraft component was ballasted here before it went into the kit. So- since you probably won't get another chance to launch it for a month or so, what I want you to do is PM me your snail-mail address and I will send you all that you need to build a new upper section from the seperation plane up. I want it to fly good for you next time and every time.
 

Dr.Zooch

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One other question... in looking at the photos of your components laying on the work table, I noticed that it appears as if the fin anchors are cut THROUGH the whole fairing rather than having just the surface wrap cut away. Did you do it that way and then slide the fins into the slot?
 

Delta-IV

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One other question... in looking at the photos of your components laying on the work table, I noticed that it appears as if the fin anchors are cut THROUGH the whole fairing rather than having just the surface wrap cut away. Did you do it that way and then slide the fins into the slot?
Oh my :eek:, I might have not read the assembly step correctly or glossed over it. Yes I did cut through the fairing and glued the fin to the BT. The instructions are at home, so I'll look them over tonight and write my "Corrective Action" report ..oh, that's what we have to do here at work...still might be a good thing though. ;)

I will try to fly it again at NEFAR this coming Saturday after I fix the fin issue for not enough exposed surface area. NEFAR has a much larger recovery area, so I'll put it up with a C6-5 as well.
 
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Dr.Zooch

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What tipped me off was the look of the fins when finished. Pull out your instructions sheet or , if you still have it, your wrap sheet's fin guide. The fin shape in the instructions and on the wrap sheet are the same. Cut the fin as seen in step 9 (either fin shape will work- they're also the same). Then place the cut out against the fin as it is on the rocket- if the rocket presents even the slightest smaller profile than the cut out- you got TROUBLE. Of course I may have a cure.;)
 

mjennings

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Nice pictures! Too bad on the squirrelly flight.
 
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