Dr. Zooch Return To Flight Space Shuttle build thread- #2

Discussion in 'Low Power Rocketry (LPR)' started by luke strawwalker, Mar 4, 2009.

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  1. Oct 7, 2014 #601

    luke strawwalker

    luke strawwalker

    luke strawwalker

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    WAAAY back on page 1, I did a WHOLE BUNCH of paint and color tests for the shuttle ET... I used the "Zooch method" as it was then known (using three different rattlecan colors applied in "dust coats" over each other to blend together) and some others as well... Even then the originally recommended colors for the Zooch Method were nearly impossible to find by then (thanks to the EPA VOC regs forcing old Krylon off the market) and thus I experimented...

    The thing with the ET color is, they were never quite the same... Of course the first two shuttle flights used tanks painted white... This served a few purposes, among them 1) protecting the foam insulation on the ETs on these early flights, since it was well understood before hand that these flights would likely spend MONTHS out on the pad in the weather before actually being launched-- so covering the foam with paint would minimize UV weathering and stuff of the foam... 2) the paint also charred in a pattern showing the shock wave impingement off the orbiter nose and SRB nose cones during flight, the exhaust gas plume recirculation at the base of the orbiter, and the ET's nose heating itself during flight (parts of the ET heat up to over 400 degrees in flight due to air friction, especially where supersonic shockwaves shed by the orbiter and SRB nosecones hit the tank walls, and the tank nose itself...) The paint, when applied, weighed about 800 pounds or so, plus all the manhours necessary to apply it, so after the first two flights, the paint was deleted, so that extra payload could be carried instead.

    SO, the tank can be white, if one desires the "maiden voyage" shuttle look... as for the 133 flights that flew with the orange/brown tanks, a lot of the actual coloration depends greatly on how long the tank sat out in the hot Florida sun on the pad or in processing... The tanks are actually sprayed with a foam material not unlike the 'foam in a can' stuff we get at the hardware store for various jobs... When it is first applied, it's a very light, creamy color... shortly after being exposed to the sun, it starts to turn the more recognizable orange-brown color, and the longer its exposed to solar UV, the darker it becomes... I broke a chunk of spray foam that had oozed from a corner of my brother's garage, and had been exposed to solar UV for a couple years, and took a picture of it for one paint test... one can clearly see that the unexposed foam (that was inside the corner of the building out of the sun) remained a creamy tan color, while the exterior surface of the foam "blob" had been weathered into an orange-brown color, with the brownish-orange being on the side getting the most sun, turning oranger and lighter as the surface curved around away from the sun...

    SO, if you want your shuttle to look like one of those shuttle missions that got delayed for months and ended up sitting on the pad or moved back and forth between the pad and VAB a time or two for repairs, then go with a brownish-orange color. If you want it to look like it was a typical shuttle flight that maybe sat on the pad a few weeks to a month or so, then go with an orange-brown color. If you want it to look like the ET was manufactured at Michoud, sent in the enclosed barge (out of the sunlight) from Louisiana to Florida via the intercoastal waterway, unloaded and rolled straight into the VAB, stacked to form the vehicle, moved to the pad, and launched with a pretty short period of time, go with a lighter tan-orange color....

    One other thing to remember-- every camera, film, photo, computer monitor, etc. all display colors subtly different... Every time the format is changed between and including the first time the item is photographed and how you finally end up seeing the image of it, the slight differences in how the actual color we'd see is recorded on the medium being used (film, digital camera, uploaded and downloaded file, printout, viewed on screen, etc.) So while something might "look right" or an 'exact match' to a picture we might have or one we see online, the ACTUAL color can be slightly different. PLUS, then you need to throw in the lighting conditions when the image was actually captured-- colors will look VERY different when filmed under full sunlight compared to an overcast or cloudy day... the differences in how a color appears when photographed under artificial light is also very marked... Then of course there's scaling differences which affect how we perceive things... large objects far away tend to appear darker than they actually are, giving a false impression of the ACTUAL hue of a color viewed on a large rocket seen from very far away... Scaling effects also come into play with our models... of course they're MUCH smaller than the actual vehicles being modeled, and while sometimes having the technically "accurate" hue of a color, when it's applied to the rocket, it CAN look too light or "bright" compared to the real thing, simply because we're seeing a small object closer up compared to a large object much farther away... Usually using colors that are a SLIGHTLY darker hue than the "actual" color applied to the vehicle will make it look larger and more impressive to the eye when on the pad.... simply because that's how the color would look to our brains viewing it on a several hundred foot tall rocket from a few miles away...

    All things that come into consideration when picking the color...

    Then of course there were sometimes damaged sections of the foam that had to be scraped off and reapplied, leading to a much different color on those repaired areas than the surrounding original foam which had already aged some and been exposed to however much solar UV...

    Maroon-- never heard of that one... Aggies would have loved it... LOL:)

    Later! OL JR :)
     
  2. Oct 7, 2014 #602

    NJRick

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    Luke,
    I admit I am not very good with colors....so maroon probably not a good description...lol...when I go with my wife to the paint store, another one of those dreaded trips...almost as bad as going to Bed Bath & Beyond..:eyeroll:... my wife will talk about colors such as periwinkle, sea foam etc...and I am telling her I have no idea what those colors are.... :confused2: I am like..light green? light purple?? It always ends up with me simply saying..just pick a color (any color...) and I will paint it....of course, that process of her picking the paint may take weeks!!!

    I am attaching a picture....and as you pointed out...there is a variation in color...now, maybe these are due to weathering, place of manufacture, lighting or all of the above.......I just had a recollection that some of the tanks appeared darker than others...
    Shuttle_profilesa.jpg

    regardless of tank color.....this is a cool kit...and a blast to fly!
     
  3. Oct 8, 2014 #603

    GlenP

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    Just finished painting the flame fins and added some trim black and gray. I think the ET color came out okay, using only Testors flat Grapefruit, maybe too orange for some people, but hey, at least it's not day-glo. I just went with the simple approach, eyeballed the best color from the rack of paint bottles at the craft store.

    Rather than putting a NASA meatball on the wing, I was thinking of making a sticker or decal of the Dr. Zooch patch, to give credit where credit is due.
    (or blame as the case may be... but as builder of his fine kit, we will share equally in the credit, and equally in the blame for the flight performance or lack thereof. :) )
    [​IMG]

    here are some more pictures of the final product.

    DSC_6062.jpg DSC_6063.jpg DSC_6064.jpg DSC_6065.jpg DSC_6067.jpg

    It seems like the parachute cords came out a little short, maybe I just tied my loops too large. I hope the chute will work fine, I just remember longer cords when making chutes in the past. Also, the shock cord seems very long, I guess you don't want the nose cone to spring back and hit the stack either.
     
  4. Oct 8, 2014 #604

    NJRick

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    she looks great Glenn!! great job! can't wait to see your flight pictures! She is a lot of fun to fly!!

     
  5. Oct 8, 2014 #605

    Mushtang

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    I remember reading those posts and being impressed with your work, and a little jealous of those of you that can see the slight differences in colors.

    To most of you. But they were to me. Ha!

    I've decided that the next one of these I build will be the Columbia and paint the tank white for the first mission.

    All I see is orange, orange, orange, orange.... heh.
     
  6. Oct 8, 2014 #606

    Mushtang

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    That's an awesome idea!!! I think that would look really great!

    Good job on the build. I can't wait to see pictures and video of your shuttle lift off and flight.
     
  7. Oct 8, 2014 #607

    Mushtang

    Mushtang

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    Could everyone that has built one of these please measure where your CG is on the orbiter? I'm curious how my shuttle CG location compares with others.

    In post #402 I measured mine at 9cm from the tip, and in post #403 NJRick posted his CG at 9.8cm from the tip. If anyone else could post theirs I'd appreciate it.

    And if Dr. Zooch sees this, please report back where the ideal location of the CG on the orbiter is. Thanks!!
     
  8. Oct 9, 2014 #608

    NJRick

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    Mushtang...you and Luke both have a way of sanding and prepping your balsa nose cones and painting them so that they look like they are made of porcelain. I remember your Mega Mosquito you made a while back and I couldn't believe how smooth it turned out.

    And Luke is just one of the masters on here....nuf said.
    He was a big help for me with my Zooch Vostok build as well as others. With my 1b build...for some reason I decided to try to make SM thrusters and at that scale...its like splitting hairs. I made mine by cutting small pieces of plastic rods going blind in the process....Luke created a mold that he carved out of a clothes line pin and then melting plastic and filling the mold..LOL...he is on another level!! as always Luke...thank you!! !!!:cheers:



     
  9. Oct 10, 2014 #609

    luke strawwalker

    luke strawwalker

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    Oh gosh... twern't nuthin... :)

    You're welcome. Glad to be of service.

    Later! OL JR :)
     
  10. Oct 11, 2014 #610

    RCMagic

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    I finished my Dr Zooch Space Shuttle, the only thing missing is to trim the glider and I hope to do this Sunday if weather permits. This is a picture of the finished rocket:

    Finished.jpg

    The following is what I'm hoping it would look like when the maiden launch (actual model, fake background and thrust thanks to photoshop)
    Space Suttle fake.jpg
     
  11. Oct 11, 2014 #611

    NJRick

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    beautiful job!! she looks awesome!!

     
  12. Oct 11, 2014 #612

    GlenP

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    Okay, so if we get to use Photoshop (or GIMP) here goes: (hybrid of the STS-114 launch, which was a Return to Flight mission, and my Dr. Zooch Shuttle)
    STS114launch_Zooch.jpg

    here is the original of the kit, with the Zooch patch and extra large size USA flag:
    DSC_6071.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  13. Oct 11, 2014 #613

    rbelknap

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    wowie - talk about a smokey motor! :p

    nice work on those zooch shuttles RC and Glen!
     
  14. Oct 11, 2014 #614

    NJRick

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    she looks awesome Glenn!! great job!!

     
  15. Feb 22, 2015 #615

    Mushtang

    Mushtang

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    I was re-reading this thread last night and got excited to build another. So I logged onto jonrocket and bought a shuttle kit and a saucer just for the heck of it.

    So far I have an Atlantis (the first shuttle I built) and a Discovery (2nd one I built but first using the wraps). I'm definitely going to use the wraps on this new shuttle but I'm thinking of going with a white ET and building with Columbia wraps, that might look pretty good next to the others.
     
  16. Feb 22, 2015 #616

    NJRick

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    can't wait to see your next build Mushtang!



     
  17. Feb 25, 2015 #617

    Mushtang

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    My newest Space Shuttle kit arrived today!! Hooray!

    I ordered it from Jonrocket.com a few days ago. On the website there was a place to fill in any special instructions so I thought it would be fun to see how the folks at jonrocket might play along. So I asked them to draw a picture on the box of a duck wearing a tuxedo.

    Jon Rocket Request.jpg

    So both rockets were shipped in a larger box and I opened it looking forward to seeing what someone drew on it.

    But the box was blank. Dangit. Nothing was drawn.
     
  18. Mar 1, 2015 #618

    Mushtang

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    Whoops! Close call.

    I had to wait until today to make any significant progress on my new shuttle. It's been about a year since I've used my printer and it needed new ink so before I could print out the wrap for the Columbia (STS-1 version of the stack). I spent about two hours driving to get the ink, setting up the printer with the new ink, printing a test on paper, measuring it to verify it prints correct, before finally printing the wraps on card stock.

    So then I spent another long time cutting out the nose cone shape and gluing it up. I was seconds away from gluing in the nose plug and spar when my 9 year old son walks up, looks at my shuttle nose, and says, "Why is it green"?

    Being color blind it didn't look green to me, it looked okay. So I held it next to the previous one I built and it did look different. My wife confirmed it was green. Dang printer!!

    So I printed a new set on my wife's brand new printer and it looks a lot better according to all the people in the house that can tell the difference between dark green and black. Heh.
     
  19. Mar 3, 2015 #619

    NJRick

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    Can't wait to see some pictures Mushtang...your Shuttles are just beautiful!


     
  20. Mar 3, 2015 #620

    mjennings

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    Has anyone had to get in to the aft closure of the ET to do repair work? The movers ripped the engine hooks out of my Shuttle and Alpha III (I probably won't repair the Alpha III as I've considered her retired for a while now) I plan to document the repairs but was curious if anyone else had gone done a MMT replacement / repair, and had suggestions other than the standard R&R.
     
  21. Mar 4, 2015 #621

    Mushtang

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    After I printed the Columbia wraps and glued the wing tops to the balsa wings I remembered Luke Strawwalker told me in post number 412 of this thread that the graphics on the shuttle wings had changed over the years. That led me to an internet search that turned up this site:
    http://www.axmpaperspacescalemodels.com/REFERENCE.html
    which I shared in post number 416, and it shows all the shuttles and their graphics over the years (on a PDF linked from the bottom of that page).

    So I checked it and sure enough STS-1 was different than the wings I'd just made. My daughter is quite handy with Photoshop so I enlisted her help and she altered the document a bit, and now my STS-1 wings are closer to being correct (I won't say they *are* correct because I know they probably still look different enough for someone to notice, but this is close enough for me).

    STS-1 Wings redo.jpg

    On the left is the wing I made from the wraps, and on the right is the STS-1 graphics wing.

    She also altered the graphic I made of the cable tray to remove the orange, because the ET will be painted off white on this build.
     
  22. Mar 4, 2015 #622

    GlenP

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    I am trying my best to search the forum posts to find this, but am not having any luck, search results are just not that helpful in this case. Were the detailed Shuttle wraps ever posted here for download, or are they just emailed around when someone asks? (I'm asking.)
     
  23. Mar 4, 2015 #623

    Mushtang

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    Jeff posted them back in post number 495.

    Each version of the shuttle has two pages you print on cardstock. The pieces are fairly detailed and you cut them out, fold them (where necessary), glue them in the right place, and you have to figure this out on your own because there's no instructions. However, it's fairly easy to figure out once you get started.

    These do end up adding weight to the shuttle so you have to compensate by adding a little extra nose clay to bring the CG back to the same point as a stock build. There are posts in this thread showing where that is too.

    The general feeling is that someone should build a shuttle stock first, and then do a second one with these wraps if they choose. That just gives you some experience with what to do and what to expect.
     
  24. Mar 8, 2015 #624

    NJRick

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    these look fantastic Mushtang!!



     
  25. Mar 8, 2015 #625

    Mushtang

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    I've finished the orbiter for STS-1 and I thought I'd make a post about CG. When I built my Discover using the wraps I had to do this same thing, but I only had the stock build to go with. It has been HIGHLY recommended by several people in this thread, including the good Dr. Zooch, that you should build one of these models stock before using the wraps. This is one of the reasons. If you have a shuttle that flies you can measure the CG on the flying model to make sure your new model is balanced the same.

    This is my stock build. The orbiter balances on the edge of a metal ruler, and you can see that the balance point, or CG, is on the back edge of the flag on the side of the bay. That is where I needed to make my new shuttle balance.

    CG 01 - Stock build.jpg


    For curiosity I checked my Discovery, which also flies well, and it balances in nearly the same place.

    CG 02 - Discover Wrap.jpg


    For this build I needed to be able to add nose weight, so I haven't glued on the front cockpit section yet. Instead it's sitting on top of the paper bottom that sticks out slightly under the nose section, and a very small piece of blue painters tape across the top to hold it in place.

    The nose has the nose weight that comes with the kit installed and glued in place, so the difference in CG shows the difference that using these wraps will make. It's approximately 3/8" back from the flag, on the leading edge of the "n" in "United". In post number 461 Dr. Zooch says that having the CG off by 1/4" can keep it from flying, so I needed to bring it forward.

    CG 03 - Columbia no addl nose weight.jpg

    To get the CG forward I had to add some clay inside the nose. For balancing purposes I just rolled little snakes and laid them over the nose, removing or adding small pinches until I got it where I wanted it. I had to put it there, instead of laying it anywhere else, because that's approx where the clay will be when it's inside the nose. This picture shows the right amount that I ended up with.

    CG 04 - Columbia addl nose weight outside.jpg

    And when I put the clay in the nose I double checked the CG and it looks correct now, but it's still held on with the small piece of blue tape on the top of the cockpit. When the glue inside holding the clay in place dries I can glue the nose in place permanently.

    CG 05 - Columbia addl nose weight installed.jpg

    You can see the clay glued in place. You can also see some small pieces of balsa I added to the front spar in order to get the cockpit to glue in place more securely.

    CG 06 - Columbia Nose inside.jpg




    My External Tank is nearly finished and ready for paint. I'll post pics when I get it done.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  26. Mar 9, 2015 #626

    NJRick

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    she is looking good Mushtang! awesome!!
     
  27. Mar 17, 2015 #627

    Mushtang

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    So I'm 99% finished with my STS-1 build and I thought I'd share a few indoor pictures. I still have to add the recovery parts as well as some dowels to add structure between the boosters and the ET, but those shouldn't take too long.

    Here's my ET naked. The first four (I think) ETs had an Anti-Geyser Line to the left of the shuttle, similar to the Repressurization Line that runs up the tank to the right of the orbiter. The Anti-Geyser line only goes partway up the intertank section. For both of these lines I cut some thick card stock and glued it to the ET before painting to which I'll glue some paper strips where graphics are printed on over the paint.

    STS-1 01 ET bare.jpg


    Since the STS-1 tank was painted white I didn't have to worry about which color "orange" I was going with. But I did make an executive decision to use white primer and no paint at all. Since the ET was likely slightly roughly finished with the white paint going over expanding foam insulation I also didn't worry about sanding the primer after it dried. So two coats of white primer and I was done.

    I then printed the Repressurization Line and the Anti-Geyser Line, cut to width and length, and applied with white glue.

    The ET on STS-1 is the only one with the distinctive black ring on the nose cone. I considered many ways to get that on there (masking, drawing free hand, using a plastic circle template held over the top, etc.) and even emailed master builder HCMBanjo to ask how he'd do it (he recommended a decal), before I decided on a method. I used a compass and put the needle at the tip and drew a light pencil line around the cone, then I followed that with a fine tip sharpie. It turned out okay.

    STS-1 02 ET painted.jpg

    The SRBs on STS-1 also had a few distinctive black rectangles on them near the bottom of the ET and some dots on the nosecones. I cut the small rectangles out of the black card stock sections that came with the instructions (which were to be used for optional black rings on the SRBs). I considered printing a black area on thinner copy paper and cutting the rectangles out of that instead, but the black card stock areas are so much darker than my printer can produce. I guess Dr. Zooch has a better printer than I do. The black dots were drawn freehand with a sharpie.

    STS-1 03 Stack.jpg

    Here's the complete stack on my kitchen table.

    STS-1 04 Orbiter mounted.jpg


    STS-1 05.jpg



    STS-1 06.jpg

    And a close up of the nose. As I said, my printer isn't THAT great. Next time I build one of these (this is my third) I'll probably print a dozen or more copies of these wraps at work on our awesome printer and use one of those. However, regarding this nose print, if you're more than 2 inches away you really can't see the blurriness or lack of detail.

    The nose plug was painted with gray primer before inserting. On my other two orbiters I think I tried coloring them with a gray sharpie but they turned out mostly black. This is better.

    STS-1 07.jpg

    The flame fins are also finished but I didn't include pictures of them. When I get the parachute installed and the SRB reinforcing struts added and it's ready for flight I'll take a few better pictures outside in daylight.
     
  28. Mar 18, 2015 #628

    NJRick

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    WOW!!! she looks FANTASTIC!!! extremely well done Mushtang!!
     
  29. Mar 18, 2015 #629

    Mushtang

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    Thanks! I just hope it glides well.
     
  30. Mar 18, 2015 #630

    NJRick

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    she will fly!! she really turned out great! You have set the standard on the Zooch Shuttle!!!

     

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