Downscales of some classics

[powderburner]

Thanks for the tip, Greg, I may just contact him about that.
BTW, is isn't the cost of a decent printer so much as the cost and time of feeding it when I have three kids and a wife who seem to think they need to print a color copy of EVERYTHING they see. So far I have kept the problem under control with a nice, old, slow, Canon printer that does basic color (not photographic). But I stay busy even with that, replacing ink cartridges, unjamming paper (usually mangled into the feed tray or an attempt to reprint on the back side), and just generally chewing up my time and money. It will NOT work around here for Dad to buy himself a 'nice' printer and not share it.

 

[BobH48]

It was a rainy day today so I built a ESS Raven completely from cardstock. It's a BT-5 size but even so it's pretty big. I think too big for MMX so I put a thrust ring for a 13mm motor.

Does anyone know where the CG should be on this? I looked in the CP library on EMRR but no luck.

I will probably do a swing test on it anyway but it would be nice to have an idea where the balance point should be.

 

[BobH48]

Here is a view of the bottom.

 

[Micromeister]

Originally posted by BobH48
It was a rainy day today so I built a ESS Raven completely from cardstock. It's a BT-5 size but even so it's pretty big. I think too big for MMX so I put a thrust ring for a 13mm motor.

Does anyone know where the CG should be on this? I looked in the CP library on EMRR but no luck.

I will probably do a swing test on it anyway but it would be nice to have an idea where the balance point should be.

Bob:
Very nice looking model, I'll have to look for the CG, I believe it's in my notebook I know I had the same concern when doing the T-3 downscales, most of these two models are light cardstock also I also have the plan downscaled for 10.5mm body if your interested. However the T-3 (.375") diameter does get very cost to the limit for micros, the empty weight with 6" chute & wadding is 9 grams.
ESS Raven is truely a classic, one of the coolest models ever

 

[Micromeister]

Over time I've up and downscaled my very favorite all time model Estes interceptor. of the ones done it think this minimum diameter .281" Micro Maxx powered model gets the most flying time, I've worn out 3 shock chords and teflon streamers since completing it. It's so fast I have yet to catch a lift-off Really get to altitude (150+ feet) in a hurry.

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Micromeister
I also have the plan downscaled for 10.5mm body if your interested. However the T-3 (.375") diameter does get very cost to the limit for micros, the empty weight with 6" chute & wadding is 9 grams.
ESS Raven is truely a classic, one of the coolest models ever

I don't currently have any T-3 body tube. I was thinking of making a T-2+ version but I have a number of other projects going on right now.

Thanks for the offer... Is it posted on the Yahoo! Micro forum?

 

[mike_bar]

Originally posted by BobH48
It was a rainy day today so I built a ESS Raven completely from cardstock. (snip.)

Bob,
Great looking ESS Raven!
Is that your own design (the card model version)?
I look forward to seeing it fly at a CMASS club launch this summer.
Regards,
Mike

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Mike_BAR
Bob,
Great looking ESS Raven!
Is that your own design (the card model version)?
I look forward to seeing it fly at a CMASS club launch this summer.
Regards,
Mike

Yup, I drew it from scratch using the fin templates and a decal scan to work from.

I won't make the April launch due to family commitments but plan to attend all the others.

 

[Micromeister]

Originally posted by BobH48
I don't currently have any T-3 body tube. I was thinking of making a T-2+ version but I have a number of other projects going on right now.

Thanks for the offer... Is it posted on the Yahoo! Micro forum?

Yes the T-3 version plan is posted in the files section on the Micro fourm. Actually it's two pages with the decal placement sheet

 

[BobH48]

Well, I finally bought a couple of Swifts so I could get the nose cones.

The rest of the parts I used to make a Mosquito with one of the extra cones from the assortment pack so nothing was wasted.

I think I'll make this a MMX Mosquito so that I'll have a chance to get it back.

The MMX motors pack a lot of power into a tiny tube. I launched my Juno-1 on Friday with one and it was out of sight immediately. I have launched this a total of three times and have never seen it once it left the pad. I thought it was lost for good this time but I found it on Sunday while I was doing some yard work.


I need to make one a little bigger if I hope to see it in the air.

 

[gpoehlein]

yup - I'm building a Quark now with a mmx mount - I'm figuring that they all are overpowered one even a 1/4A. Of course, I'm also building a BT-60 version of the Quark too (using a Screaming Mimi nose cone), but that should be a different thread

Greg

 

[Micromeister]

Quarks and full size mosquitos get about 75 to 100 feet on MM-II motors. Very nice conversions. I went so far as to include a rear ejection motor pod and streamer in 2 mosquitos just for fun.

10-4 Bob on never seeing some of the minimum diameter micros liftoff! Some to the T-3's are just a blur as well. When I did my Nike-Smokes series launches last summer, I have yet to see the T2+ or T-3 flights... Woosh and gone!...did get them all back

 

[Micromeister]

Is that it? Anybody else done any downscaleing? I need a Pic fix! somebody go build something kewl

 

[astronboy]

OK Micromeister,

Just for you!!

Here is a pic of my Bitty Bertha. I have build a few downscales based on the bT-5 body tube. I typically fly them on 1/4a 13mm motors. I have Cherokee T and a Renegade T (T for T motors) somewhere around here as well.

Anyway, the Bitty Bertha is pictured next to a full scale Astron Mark clone to provide some scale. I plan on making a mid 1970's style roll pattern for the Bitty Bertha, but just haven't gotten around to it yet...


Phred

 

[Micromeister]

Super nifty Phred:
If you don't mind what manufacturer and specific Yellow is that.. Looks like a very good yellow. I always liked the little Astron Mark didn't the original fly on the type "S" short 18mm motors? I still have a few 1/2A-0s and 1/2A-2s motors in my box

Your Bitty Bertha is BT-5? Heres a Micor powered Micro-Bertha based on 10.5mm (.448") tubing. Custom micro bertha decal and body strip roll pattern Guess I should have done it in .375 but I liked the .448" size

the 13mm downscales are a lot of fun especially since Estes brought back the 1/4A-T 13mm motors.

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Micromeister
Is that it? Anybody else done any downscaleing? I need a Pic fix! somebody go build something kewl

Ok, here is another one I downscaled to use the Quark cone.

It's a Star Blazer #TK-31, but it's really not much of a downscale, cause the original was a BT-20 size.

The original Star Blazer #K-31 used the shorty "S" motors and had a different fin shape. It was reissued with the same body tubes but alternate fins and a paper canopy rather than a balsa one.

 

[Micromeister]

Looks good Bob:
I remember the star blazer. but must be a newer version, #0831 which is a BT-5 model. Still flies on 1/4A-A mini motors.

 

[Micromeister]

Next to the Interceptor on my list of all time favorite Kits is the Centuri Laser-X. What a really cool combination of Staged look and Sci-Fi features.
Here's my Micro Maxx powered version. I sitll have an original size Centuri Kit I built and fly, as well as a 1.41 single D12 upscale and a staged clusted BT-101 Upscale That I've had to replace the upper stage which went completely out of sight on a B6-6...18" hemi mulit color chute just couldn't been seen... but what a pretty flight.
The Micro Laser-X is a bit heavy for MM-I motors but fly's fine on the MM-II's.

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Micromeister
I remember the star blazer. but must be a newer version, #0831 which is a BT-5 model.

You got the right one. TK-31 is #0831. It's a BT-20 with a 13mm motor mount. You can just barely make out the kit number in the bottom left corner of the header card.

https://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/estTK-31/estTK-31.htm

K-31 was the older one. It was BT-20 also but had an engine block for the "S" motors.

https://www.dars.org/jimz/k-31.htm

I also have an original. When the short motors became unavailable, I glued a 13MM motor mount into it.

 

[Micromeister]

Originally posted by BobH48
You got the right one. TK-31 is #0831. It's a BT-20 with a 13mm motor mount. You can just barely make out the kit number in the bottom left corner of the header card.

Your Correct bob! my 0831 Star Blazer is BT-20 with a 13mm motor mount.
I think its gonna be an excellent candadate for t3 downscaling.)

How about the Mars snooper? anyone Tried to make one with a 13mm motor mount? I did a .281" motor mount version the is on the heavy side for Micros. flys OK but only gets about 20-25 feet;( all those reversing paper transitions make doing a smaller version with the same size motor mount a bit trickier... It'd be cool in say .448" main body to a .246" upper stage. just getting all the nesting transitions and fin placement...Ugh! Pre-printing some of those pieces would be very helpful.

 

[Micromeister]

Almost all the the clone, Up or Downscaled Der Red Max models i've seen on TRF and on the fields are Finished in the Traditional Red and Black color scheme. While that scheme is really Great I have a micor done in them as well, I'm very happy with the alternative colorings shown below.
Last Feb and March Phred and I diecided to build Launcher diorama's and Der Red Max models finsihed in the alternative pattern shown on the back page of the original models b&w instructions. Phred build a standard clone (Bt-60), I naturally downscaled to micro-maxx using .448" 10.5mm bodies. The interesting things are the paint patterns we came up with for the "worm and splotch" camouflage coloings imagined from looking at those black and white drawings. I decided to do two models, one in summer camouflage the other in a winter scheme. These models and their working launcher diorama's were very rewarding projects.

I sometimes think we tend to stick way to closely to the packaging colors for finishing our models. Imagination in finishing and maybe an accessory or two are basicly all we can do with our Kit constructions. While I'll admit I haven't built a kit sport model in several years. I still make an effort NOT to stick to package panel colors on my clones or scratch builds unless it's the very best combination to be had

 

[BobH48]

I suppose that I should thank (blame) Greg for getting me going on all these BT-5 size downscales.

I bought a few of the BT-5 nose cone assortments and each of them has 3 Quark cones and 2 Mosquito cones.

This is what I came up with for one of those Mosquito cones.

It's the Alien Space Probe and its really small. Scaled down from a BT-80, it's smaller than a Mosquito. It's a MMX model for sure and I'm not sure if I will even see it then.

 

[Micromeister]

Originally posted by BobH48
[
It's the Alien Space Probe and its really small. Scaled down from a BT-80, it's smaller than a Mosquito. It's a MMX model for sure and I'm not sure if I will even see it then. [/B]

Ah ha! sure you will...BT-5 is huge....for micros that is I fly my Alien Space Probe often without any trouble at all seeing it's entire flight. Oh yeah its .488" (10.5mm) dia, and just at 5.6g lift off weight with a MM-II motor.

Bob: don't know about your BT-5 model but this 10.5mm model is badly affected by winds over 10mph, weathercocks almost as soon as it leaves the rod. Great straight flights in lighter winds.

 

[BobH48]

Originally posted by Micromeister
Bob: don't know about your BT-5 model but this 10.5mm model is badly affected by winds over 10mph, weathercocks almost as soon as it leaves the rod. Great straight flights in lighter winds.

I just finished it this afternoon and haven't clear coated it yet so I don't know about the flight profile. Thanks for the information about the wind. The area that I use to fly my Micros is real close to home but also very small so I generally only fly them in light wind anyway.

 

[Micromeister]

That's way the landing feet look so round, I added some additional diameter and weight to help the drag factor, helped some but anything over 10mph the flight path is more a very long arc rather then a straight flight. 0-9 mph straight as an arrow

 

[Micromeister]

Speaking of Classics,
Heres a flight pic page of minimium diameter Orbital Transport and detachable gliding micro orbiter which is T2 .246" dia. In flight you have to watch the glider which has the same slow decent as the full size and Upscale models. very hard to find if you let it land unobserved Silver mylar 3" chute make finding the mother ship fairly easy.

 

[Micromeister]

Well the micro OT didn't spark any interest maybe another not quite so classic but a pretty neat model will. the Deep Space Transport. I clustered my full size model but kept the micro version a single motor .281" body with .246" boosters. fins/wings are basswood as is the custom turned nosecone. Teflon streamer recovery. While I really do dislike white rockets, I relented and painted this one white. home made Alps water slide decals finishd the job. This little bird is an excellent flyer even in fairly high winds (10 15mph). full one page plan is in the files section of the micromaxrockets yahoo group.
Like so many of the micro models, deep space transport is very quick off the pad, I've yet to catch a good lift off shot;(

 

[gpoehlein]

Well, John - I didn't say anything about the orbital transport downscale cause I'd seen one of yours before in the yahoo group - it is very nice.

Been meaning to ask tho... how does the glider fly in that small scale? I know the inverse square law isn't too kind to gliders in general - a half size glider has a quarter of the wing area. Is there enough there to let it glide?

Greg

ps - the Deep Space Transport is quite nice too!

GP

 

[Micromeister]

Greg:
I was a bit surprised at how well the orbiter glides. It has a faster glide then its full size counterpart but does about 4 -20 to 30 foot circles before landing. maybe 10 to 12 seconds +/- from the 60-80' altitude on MM-I motors, I haven't timed the flights...guess I should It's getting to the landing site quickly thats the bigger problem. Launch attending children want to Run over to see it... usually stepping on the model before these olders legs can get to the spot to pick it up....I'm on orbiter #3. Trimming is best done in the house. Once you get a nice glide slope, it can be adjusted to circle outside.
Sometimes laws are made to be broken I've had some pretty fair results with micronizing Deltie, Ivee, E-cee, Nomad RG, Flex wing BG and RG models for Mico-Maxx flights. Don't know if they'd be considered Classics but they are definitely Downscales
If your looking for a very nice 1/8A competition BG, this size Deltie and Ivee have turned it some impressive 40-60sec + times, as well as some funny sprial in untrimmed flights! I've even lost a micro Deltie to a thermal...Last seen going up heading for downtown Middletown, MD So far the inverse square rule has only really come into play on the micro Nomad which has a fairly high airfoiled wing with flat stab/movable elevator geometry. whereas the Ivee with the thinner airfoiled wing and V-tail has shown nearly perfectly straight boosts and very nice stable glides once trimmed...Lordy I'm awful at trimming gliders of any size

 

[Micromeister]

Here's one I nearly forgot about; Because of all the tubes and the hand carved work on the nosecone dome this Micro downscale pushes the limit on model weight for micro models tipping the scales at 17.1 grams with a 4 inch mylar chute, LOWt 18.2g. All that and she still gets 15-20 feet on a MM-II motor. To date the log shows 6 good flights and one (Her First flight) where she hung up on the rod. If not a great flight performer she is a great attention getter at the check-in table
I have to admit this one was a challange to downscale with the nosecone being the hardest part. Turned out of solid basswood the basic shape was pretty straight forward, while the layout and hand carving of that darn dome shape took some time. Once I was sort of happy with the external shaping and sanding (it's FAR from perfect) I then used a Dremel to hollow out the cone as thin as I dared. Body starts with a .448" (10.5mm) core tube, 18 - .246" tank tubes and a bunch of cardstock tank closure discs. Standard .281"to .448" 2 ring micro maxx motor mount (Totally Tubulars fibre die cut centering rings are GREAT), attached a 70lb kevlar shockcord, 4" mylar chute, we were ready for paint. Alps printed decals finished the job, just a coat of wax... no clear coat.
See it does fly