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DOW 111 grease

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JAL3

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I just got a set of Loki 38mm hardware and DOW 111 silicon grease is recommended for the O rings. Loki sells it and I have ordered some but I'd like to know what it's intended use is. The Auto parts store had never heard of it and neither had Radio Shack. Surely, DOW does not make this just for us. What kind of business would be likely to carry it?
 

ben_ullman

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Im not sure but its good stuff!! It has a little thicker consistensy than vaseline that I like.

Ben
 

The EGE

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It appears to be a sealant and lubricant for water supply valves.
 

THier

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McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com sells it, and if you think you are in the hobby for the long run,, you can get it in a 5lb bucket, it is aesier to use, and much cheaper in the long run.
Tom
 

billspad

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So would a plumbing supply be likely to have it?

None that I've ever dealt with. However, it just may be that they have something generic that's the same. I've used the silicone grease that I keep in my truck. It works fine and it's always there.
 

Handeman

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from http://www.waterfilters.net/ORing-Silicone-Lubricant_p_0-1127.html

Dow Corning 111 ORing Silicone Lubricant:
  • The Dow Corning ORing Lubricant is food and beverage safe. It is FDA and NSF approved.
  • Use the Dow Corning 111 O-Ring Silicone Lubricant on all brands of Water Filter Whole House Housing Rubber and Plastic O-Rings and Gaskets, all Reverse Osmosis System O-Rings, all Drinking Water Filtration Systems, all UltraViolet System O-Rings, and Water Softener and Carbon Water Filter O-Rings. This oring sealant is recommended for all water treatment o-rings and seals.
  • The Dow Corning 111 Silicone Sealant is premium grade and can also be used in underwater photography cameras, scuba gear, lubrication for control and pressure plug valves, water softener and faucet valves, sealant for vacuum and pressure systems, sealant for outdoor equipment (also shipboard) subject to washing and harsh environment exposure: meters, electrical service entrance and underground connections, damping medium for dash pots in electrical and electronic equipment, used as an anti-stick and sealant for transformer gasket and equipment enclosures. It prevents gaskets from sticking to metal and resists weathering and water washout.
  • The Dow Corning 111 Lubricant has a chemical barrier coating, good resistance to most chemicals, low vapor pressure, low volatility, and excellent water resistance.

Here is a review of Dow 111 vs Super Lube you might find interesting
DragonWorks Rocketry
 
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JAL3

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Thanks for the info, all.

I have little experience with HPR, just a few flights and one of them was on a Single use BP motor.

I've been told that the DOW stuff is the way to go for O rings but for lubing the casings it is more economical and cleans up easier to use wheel bearing grease applied with a brush. I've seen at least one other refference to that practice on ROL. http://www.rocketryonline.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1389

I've also heard of using Vaseline.

Opinions?
 

ben_ullman

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Thanks for the info, all.

I have little experience with HPR, just a few flights and one of them was on a Single use BP motor.

I've been told that the DOW stuff is the way to go for O rings but for lubing the casings it is more economical and cleans up easier to use wheel bearing grease applied with a brush. I've seen at least one other refference to that practice on ROL. http://www.rocketryonline.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1389

I've also heard of using Vaseline.

Opinions?

to each his own. Dont stress over it. Vaseline, DOW, bearing grease, spit, sweat, etc. all work. They shouldn't affect your flights.

In the larger 4.5-6" motors I do use DOW 111 exclusivelly because they so heat up more around the nozzle carrier and the thicker consistency is more likely so stay put.

Ben
 

kramer714

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not to rehash this discussion, but,

I switched over to Breakfree CLP to clean my cases, I stopped using any lube (except for o-rings). Liners slip out easy, any residue wipes out with a damp paper towel. When I get home I just spray some on let it sit and when I remember wipe off any excess.

Since I stopped using Vaseline or SuperLube my clean up time has dropped significantly! I buy BreakFree CLP at Big 5 (so cal sporting goods store), they sell it at gun stores too.

I use superlube SPARINGLY only on O-Rings.
 

JAL3

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not to rehash this discussion, but,

I switched over to Breakfree CLP to clean my cases, I stopped using any lube (except for o-rings). Liners slip out easy, any residue wipes out with a damp paper towel. When I get home I just spray some on let it sit and when I remember wipe off any excess.

Since I stopped using Vaseline or SuperLube my clean up time has dropped significantly! I buy BreakFree CLP at Big 5 (so cal sporting goods store), they sell it at gun stores too.

I use superlube SPARINGLY only on O-Rings.
How do you apply it? just spray into the casing? on the phenolic liner?
 

ben_ullman

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not to rehash this discussion, but,

I switched over to Breakfree CLP to clean my cases, I stopped using any lube (except for o-rings). Liners slip out easy, any residue wipes out with a damp paper towel. When I get home I just spray some on let it sit and when I remember wipe off any excess.

Since I stopped using Vaseline or SuperLube my clean up time has dropped significantly! I buy BreakFree CLP at Big 5 (so cal sporting goods store), they sell it at gun stores too.

I use superlube SPARINGLY only on O-Rings.
I have never greased liners and they slip out smoothly. It works as long as you get them out why they are mildly warm. I left some motors from Red Glare sit till this weekend and that 4 grain 98mm is going to probably be hard to get out till I break the seal.

Ben
 

daveyfire

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I've been told that the DOW stuff is the way to go for O rings but for lubing the casings it is more economical and cleans up easier to use wheel bearing grease applied with a brush.
Yep. Don't use Dow 111 on the liner -- when the motor gets hot, it will thin out and flow around the outside. After firing, when things cool down, you're left with a uniform coating of (highly viscous) Dow 111 around the outside of the liner, which effectively seals the liner to the case and makes it near impossible to get out. It is vacuum grease, after all! I use Dow 111 on o-rings, delays, and nozzles, and whatever cheap grease I happen to have on hand (or no grease at all) on liners.

Last time we had this discussion, the Breakfree CLP came up and I'm excited to try it out -- a quick spray on the inside of the case and it's all set. This should be great for Kosdon 38mm loads, which use no liner and thus can be a little difficult to clean at the end of the day; applying the lubricant to the casing would be ideal in a situation like this.
 

troj

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I don't like the Dow 111, because it's one of the most god-awful miserable things to clean up.

I bought a tub of cheap wheel-bearing grease, and besides being cheaper, it's also much easier to clean up afterwards.

Just getting the Dow 111 off your fingers can be "fun", especially in cooler temps.

-Kevin
 

kramer714

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The way I use BreakfreeCLP is to spray the motor case and closures, let it sit on for a while and then wipe off any excess. I put two coats on the cases at first, now just one coat. I don't put ANYTHING on the liners, I don't actually bring the breakfree with me to the launch.

For clean up, the cases are cleaning up with a single wipe of a baby wipe or paper towel with water on it. I did have some cases with old gunk on them, soaked them with a little breakfree and it took off the gunk.

I haven't tried it on my Hybrids and don't know if there would be any interactions.

Not to sound like a pitchman but it has worked quite well for me.
 

JAL3

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The way I use BreakfreeCLP is to spray the motor case and closures, let it sit on for a while and then wipe off any excess. I put two coats on the cases at first, now just one coat. I don't put ANYTHING on the liners, I don't actually bring the breakfree with me to the launch.

For clean up, the cases are cleaning up with a single wipe of a baby wipe or paper towel with water on it. I did have some cases with old gunk on them, soaked them with a little breakfree and it took off the gunk.

I haven't tried it on my Hybrids and don't know if there would be any interactions.

Not to sound like a pitchman but it has worked quite well for me.
I appreciate the info and I will look at getting some.
 

dlb

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Dow 111 is great stuff, also used by Big truck company's like CAT 111, works great for O-ring and nozzles outsides and make a good seal that good for about 500+ degrees. But it's not so good on liners, a little too thick, unless you disassemble while still hot or warm, liners I use Super Lube. to help remove it from your hand and other things with alcohol.
 

bobkrech

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O-rings do not need grease to make a seal. They are deformable and the seal is mase by compression. For most seal desingns, a 20-25% squeeze is the proper amount of compression for most static seals.

The reason why you should use a light coating of grease on o-rings in most rocket applications is to prevent damage during assembly. O-rings, especially silicone, can tear when a nozzle or forward closure is force into a casing. the lubrication allows the o-ring to slide instead of rooling and/or tearing as it moves into position. For most applications the type of grease is not important, but for hybrid applications where the o-rings are expected to be in contact with nitrous, do not use a hydrocarbon or PTFE based grease.

You should not need to apply grease to the motor liner. The liner is an insulator, and grease will aid in heat transfer to the casing, reducing the effectiveness of the liner and because itpyrolizes make cleanup more difficult.

Bob
 

billspad

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The reason why you should use a light coating of grease on o-rings in most rocket applications is to prevent damage during assembly.
From Loki's instructions:

**Use petroleum jelly, synthetic automotive greases, silicone based
greases, or even saliva.

I've used sunblock but haven't tried saliva yet.
 

daveyfire

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I've used sunblock but haven't tried saliva yet.
I used the grease off my forehead to assemble my L3 motor :D I guess that's one benefit to being a greasy teenager and camping out the night before the launch...
 

Handeman

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O-rings do not need grease to make a seal. They are deformable and the seal is mase by compression. For most seal desingns, a 20-25% squeeze is the proper amount of compression for most static seals.

The reason why you should use a light coating of grease on o-rings in most rocket applications is to prevent damage during assembly. O-rings, especially silicone, can tear when a nozzle or forward closure is force into a casing. the lubrication allows the o-ring to slide instead of rooling and/or tearing as it moves into position. For most applications the type of grease is not important, but for hybrid applications where the o-rings are expected to be in contact with nitrous, do not use a hydrocarbon or PTFE based grease.

You should not need to apply grease to the motor liner. The liner is an insulator, and grease will aid in heat transfer to the casing, reducing the effectiveness of the liner and because itpyrolizes make cleanup more difficult.

Bob
Well stated! :)

I have felt that way about lubing O-rings and liners for a long time, but that's the best explanation I've heard so far.

I've use Vaseline on all cases, from E to K, and I've never greased the liners. I've never had a cato or a stuck liner, even when I disassemble days later.

The only place I would suggest using a good, fine grease is the threads of the Aerotech cases. The o-rings keep any hot gases from reaching the threads, but a little lube will keep the threads in better shape over the long haul. IMHO.
 

billspad

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I just remembered the nifty O ring lubricator that Aerocon sells. It's loaded with Dow grease and it puts just the right amount on the O rings.
 
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