Double Shuttle has double cato

Discussion in 'Rocket Boosted Gliders' started by aerostadt, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. Apr 8, 2017 #61

    aerostadt

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    I took 4 jumbo paper clips, which are about 1 7/8" long and bent them, so that one side will be glued to the wing and one side will be attached to the elevon. The first clip was attached with epoxy and no paper. The second clip was attached with epoxy and paper on top and more epoxy on top of the paper. These were on one glider placed outward near the wing tips. The next two clips were attached more inward on the other glider so as to not interfere with the first glider. They had the 20 pound stationery placed on top with no epoxy on top of the paper. These last two attachments look much better. I have not attached the other side of the bent clip to the elevons. I am thinking of using hinge tape for that attachment, which would be less work. In any case once the clips are attached the elevons can be set up as a little bit of elevon up-flap on both gliders prior to launch. In the launch configuration the up-flap on both gliders will cancel out on boost. When the gliders separate, each glider will have the elevons already in place for gliding.


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  2. Apr 8, 2017 #62

    Crawf56

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    What is the reason for the paperclips? :confused:
     
  3. Apr 8, 2017 #63

    aerostadt

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    It will probably be easier to see when I epoxy the other end of the paper clip to the elevon. One side of the clip is glued to the wing now. The tape hinge has no strength to hold the elevon in a fixed position. When one side of the clip is attached to the wing as now and the other side to the elevon, I can bend the elevon to almost any up position and it will be held in place by the clip. Here's a aft photo of the original Double Shuttle with the elevons in the fixed position. At launch the nose-up turning moment generated by each glider is cancelled out by the two gliders being held together. However, when the ejection charge blows the gliders apart, the nose-up moment of each glider will help each glider make the transition to glide.


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  4. Apr 9, 2017 #64

    Crawf56

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    Ok, sometimes I am a Bear of Very Little Brain. This is a non-RC rocket glider, and you must work out a mechanism to move the elevons after apogee. Very good, sir!
     
  5. May 13, 2017 #65

    aerostadt

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    I decided to lengthen the forward vent tube by inserting a fiber tube of the same diameter cut lengthwise with material removed until it fit. After doing this I then put a short length of regular 24 mm coupling tube over the improvised connecting tube. Later, I spray painted the bottom side of each glider black. This gives it a re-entry vehicle look and also is easier to spot in the sky. I found that I can pretty much get away with not masking anything by carefully spraying the black downward perpendicular to the wings. On the last coat a little bit of black spray got on the other side. I corrected that by turning the gliders over and gave them a quick spray of white on the other side. During the process of spraying black I masked the vent tubes. I found that when I took the masking tape off that the vent tubes had a fuzzy cardboard surface that made the mating of the gliders too tight. I wicked thin CA into the vent tubes. I then needed to sand and even file the vent tubes a little bit in order to get a good fit between the gliders.

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  6. May 19, 2017 #66

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    The new Double Shuttle is about ready to fly. I put on decals from Sticker Shock, different colors of monokote, chrome mylar, and something like a carbon fiber monokote on the wing leading edge that I bought from a local auto parts store. All the surface finishing really adds to the looks. I usually put the carbon fiber on the nose and sides, but I am out of time. I may come back and do that later. The carbon fiber kote does not stick well on the lower black painted surfaces. So, I glued in place with clamps and some left-over foam-safe glue.

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  7. May 19, 2017 #67

    neil_w

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    If it (they?) flies as good it looks it will be *awesome*. Fantastic work, look forward to flight video.
     
  8. May 23, 2017 #68

    aerostadt

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    Out of all the rocket gliders that I launched last Saturday I would have thought that the Double Shuttle would have performed the best. Instead it crashed and burned.

    I used Q2G2 igniters for the cluster of two E12-4's, but it flew in a under-powered trajectory as if only one motor ignited and crashed before the ejection charge went off. I had this happen on the previous version of the Double Shuttle and it was repairable. However, as the rocket meet continued with a closed range, several people noticed that the Double Shuttle caught fire. By the time I got there about half of all the wing surfaces were burned up and about a third of the fuselage. The rocket was soaked from the fire extinguishers. I took the model pieces back to the car and tried to pull the E12's out with a needle nose pliers in order to get an idea what happened. However, I could not get the motors out. Probably, they were too swollen from the water and previous heat. I wanted to proceed with launching in the calm winds, so I trashed the rocket in the club trash bag. I don't know exactly what happened and I do not know the lot number of the motors.

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  9. May 23, 2017 #69

    neil_w

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    :(

    If it's any consolation, it was a kick-ass build.
     
  10. May 23, 2017 #70

    Daddyisabar

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    :( Hate when one 29mm BP motor doesn't light.
     
  11. May 23, 2017 #71

    Crawf56

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    A valiant effort, sir! :flyingpig:

    I know the feeling. I have a Balsa USA 1/4th scale Fokker DVII radio control airplane. Decided to get it back out, put on a new engine [35cc gas], swinging a 20" prop, with a 88" wingspan........CRUNCH!

    Took off with plenty of power, but 3/4 way around the airfield, it went haywire. Not exactly sure what happened.

    If you try to fly, you are going to crash. Nature of the hobby. :kill:
     
  12. May 23, 2017 #72

    aerostadt

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    Thanks, guys for the condolences and understanding. It was a crowd pleaser when it worked, so it was worth a try.
     
  13. May 23, 2017 #73

    burkefj

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    That sucks.....it was a neat idea.
     
  14. Oct 4, 2017 #74

    RocKiteman

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    :sad:
     
  15. Nov 20, 2017 #75

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    Bob, I just completed a new model, about the same size as these you were building, using model plane foam wings, and depron tail surfaces, BT-80 tubing, and PNC-80BB nose cone, set up for 24mm E-6 boost, came out at 10.25 oz rtf for reference, that's with rc gear. 32" long and 20" wingspan. If you just used it as a piggyback glider and not do a fly by itself it could be as light as 7.5-8 oz. This was just to give you an idea of how light you can go using a similar size. You could even use some of that carbon fiber tape on the leading edge top instead of painting and it would look cool as a tile like pattern and reinforce the leading edge.

    Frank

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  16. Nov 20, 2017 #76

    Rktman

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    Eric Noguchi

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    Sorry to see all the problems you've had with your glider. It was a magnificent try repairing and analyzing the problem(s) and making improvements.
    If it's any consolation it was as you said an impressive crowd-pleaser when it worked and you learned a lot about it's idiosyncrasies diagnosing the problems.
    As a BAR I've crashed and repaired more than my share of gliders but learned a lot in the process about design, what works, and how to make improvements.
    Guess sometimes the best lessons can be the worst...and also the best, because you learn never make the same mistakes again.

    Any chance you might build another?
     
  17. Nov 21, 2017 #77

    aerostadt

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    Frank,
    I really like the looks of your new Daedalus glider, especially the flat black paint scheme. I think I am pretty well set on parasite gliders for my 4xOT at the moment. I am intrigued about your ideas and materials for new glider wings. One of the problems with the Double Shuttle is that it requires two sets of wings and my wings made from 1/8" balsa, 20 pound stationery paper, and white glue take weeks to make. The other problem with the Double Shuttle is getting two E12-4's to ignite simultaneously and the sometimes temperamental cato's of the E12's.

    I have been thinking of making an R/C rocket glider like your Strato Dart with the paper reinforced wings. My primary interest for this project is that I have some single use plugged Aerotech F15's that I would like to burn up.
     
  18. Nov 21, 2017 #78

    aerostadt

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    Rktman, I am not thinking of making a Double Shuttle again. It takes weeks to make 2 sets of wings from 1/8" balsa, 20 pound stationery paper, and white glue, constantly pressing the material with heavy books during the drying process on both sides, to keep the warpage to a minimum. To fly successfully I must get two E12-4's to ignite simultaneously. I always used G2Q2 igniters, but I think now that there were flights, including the last one in Spring 2017, in which only one engine ignited. When only one E12 ignited the Double Shuttle would hit the ground before the ejection charge went off. I am thinking now that perhaps when the ejection charge went off, it might have ignited the other E12 on the other glider from the back side causing a burning model fire on the ground. The E12's were the motor to use because small BP motor clusters are relatively easy to ignite. I don't like the idea of replacing the E12's with composite motors, because I don't think that igniting a cluster of small 24 mm composite motors would be reliable. I have thought of making a single composite motor Double Shuttle, but I don't like the configuration that I imagining.
     
  19. Nov 21, 2017 #79

    burkefj

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    You could probably do a stratodart style glider with stiffer wings up to 16 oz or so that might still glide ok and handle the E-15 thrust.


     
  20. Nov 21, 2017 #80

    Rktman

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    I totally understand. I've repaired some of my gliders so many times it's not worth the effort anymore (or they reach the point where they're so damaged they can't be).

    On a side note, try self adhesive labels for papering your wings/fins. No warping, and the stuff comes in 8.5" x 11" sizes and is easily available at places like Staples.
     
  21. Nov 30, 2017 #81

    burkefj

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    Bob, I finished up my version of the orbital shuttle today, Mark was busy with black friday orders so I just cut the markings by hand and used the lettering I had, I'll add some text later. I think I will kit this, it looks pretty good.

    IMG_20171130_115435779.jpg
     
  22. Nov 30, 2017 #82

    aerostadt

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    Frank, that does look really cool! What is the diameter, length, and wing span?
     
  23. Nov 30, 2017 #83

    burkefj

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    It turned out I could re-purpose the body tube length/coupler and wing template from one of my other kits and it was right on what I wanted, basically I could just use the same CG, and just cut a new tail template. 2.6" body(lightweight bt-80), pnc-80BB, 32 overall length(28" tube), and 20" wingspan, tail is 7.5" high, 5.5" at the root, 2.5" at the tip. 10.25 oz rtf. You could save about 12 grams if you used a single piece of bt-80 without a coupler, since I have to fit them into a kit box I can't do that.

     
  24. Dec 24, 2018 #84

    aerostadt

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    Well, I am a glutton for punishment. After considerable thought about a different concept for a parasite glider I am returning to my Double Shuttle. This time I will use some different construction techniques including some 3D parts printed by Boyce Aerospace.

    First, I was intrigued by the label papering threads under the "techniques" category on the TRF. I put label paper on both sides of two 1/8" balsa specimens. One specimen then had white glue painted on and pressed between aluminum foil with book weights on top. The other specimen only had label paper. You can see the wrinkles in the specimen that was pressed with aluminum foil. This led to me think to use parchment paper instead. I hand tested bending both specimens and the glued specimen is definitely stronger.
     

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  25. Dec 24, 2018 #85

    Crawf56

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    Start a new thread...…..this one is bad luck! o_O
     
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  26. Dec 24, 2018 #86

    aerostadt

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    Putting labeling paper (8.5" x 12" from Staples) on both sides of the 1/8" inch thick balsa is easy to do. I then used a foam brush to put white glue on both sides at the same time and pressed the paper on a board sandwiched between parchment paper and pressed with heavy books. This worked pretty good. I did the same thing with stationery paper except the paper was painted with glue first and then pressed onto the balsa. The stationery paper is not as easy as the label paper. I think the final strength of the two wings is comparable, so I will make glider of each material.
     

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  27. Dec 25, 2018 #87

    Rktman

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    Eric Noguchi

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    I routinely use the label paper technique but never tried coating it with white glue. Does it give you a smooth surface? (I use lacquer since I can control how thick or thin it gets laid down, and can sand it smooth).
     
  28. Dec 25, 2018 #88

    aerostadt

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    It is fairly smooth when sandwiched between parchment paper and pressed with heavy books. There are a few imperfections on the finished product, perhaps on one side more than the other, but the small wrinkles are tolerable. The wings are fairly big, so the object was to make a wing fast that was light, but strong. In the past the Double Shuttle wings were strong enough that I never had a failure with them. One thing I am realizing now is that the wing-tip fins promote lateral stability, but they are also strengthen the wing. (BTW wait about 18 hours or more before removing the books and the parchment paper, so the glue is dry.)

    I will give Lacquer some thought, but if it requires sanding, I will stick with this technique.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2018
  29. Dec 25, 2018 #89

    Rktman

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    Eric Noguchi

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    Thought you might find this article on balsa fillers and strength/weight useful: http://rocketn00b.blogspot.com/2018/05/balsa-grain-fillers-and-added-weight.html

    It seems to agree with you that a glue coating adds a lot of strength (though a paper and glue combo also tends to add a lot of weight). Interestingly making a white glue and water slurry with talc as filler (and no papering) appears to really strengthen balsa with less of a weight penalty. Having said that, in your situation I'd prefer strength over weight too because of the strain from the motors.
     
  30. Dec 25, 2018 #90

    burkefj

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    What about something simple like just an iron on covering, they add a lot of strength.
     

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