Doorknob1 Vs. Doorknob2 variance

SilicdyneTRF
eggtimer rocketry
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Rob40

Rob40

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
17
Reaction score
3
I'm trying to find all I can on the actual scale measures of these things, and to be honest, I'm not finding much accurate info. Looking at the estes release of the Doorknob this year, I'm seeing their claimed 1:12 scale, but listed at just shy of 26 inches tall.....one of those numbers is way off according to what full scale dimensions I'm finding. Since the Doorknob was based on Lacrosse project's Thiokol XM-10 motor. I found data HERE stating the Doorknob1 had a diameter of 1.31 feet, length 11.8 feet, but the Doorknob2 is listed with a diameter of 1.73 feet, length 18.7. I would like to think that the 2 is just a staged 1 with same diameter but I'm now wondering if the 2 was an enlarged variant in itself.

Another site with less information lists the DK's at 11.92'/18.58' long, and the scale rocket bash book I found to put the DK tube scales at 1/10 for bt-60 and 1/6 for bt-80. That places the diameter at 15-16" or close to 1.31 feet. So the real number in question I suppose is the true diameter of the DK2. It it in fact different, or is the listed data I'm finding bad? The variance in length at scale is now a marginal talking point, as at 1/4 scale that would be only .3 inches different.

multiplying Estes's 1:12 claim makes it 25 feet tall....which is over twice the real doorknob1. Which makes it tough to find out what body tube Estes is using. I would like to work on a two-stage DK2, but I need real documentation on the full scale measures. If I had the ROTW book, it might solve the problem, but the used pricing of it is getting out of hand now.

Anyone out there with the definitive dimensions of both versions to confirm size? Is Estes's 1:12 a misprint and actually using thickwall 3"? Because a 25" tall version is around 1/5 scale.
 
I saw somewhere the PS II Doorknob is using the same BT as the PS II Nike Smoke. I can't remember off the top of my head what that was, but the PSII BTs were 2" 2.5" and 4" IIRC. They weren't your typical BT-xx sizes.
 
The upcoming Estes model is 3" in dia. and 26.9" long:
https://estesrockets.com/product/009720-pro-series-ii-doorknob/
Click on technical specifications.
The 1:12 scale must be a typo. I come up with 1:5.24 scale.
That is using the specs for the actual rocket of 11.8' length and 1.31' diameter.
So the question is why there are two different diameters listed in your link?
 
Peter Alway has drawings of the one and two staged Doorknob in one of his Rockets of the World supplements. Sorry, don’t know which one. :(
Searching this forum for “doorknob” brings several threads of various builds. I like the efforts or TRFer judo:


Doorknob-2 Build
My basis for the build is Peter Alway's Rockets of the World, Suppliment 2 or something. I've already built one on a BT-80 and one on a BT-50. This one is Series 16 (BT-60).

I used a photocopier to enlarge the image to the full size that I will need.


https://www.rocketryforum.com/index.php?posts/217038/
 
Last edited:
Upon viewing samb's link to the thread with the dimensional drawing it would seem that the 1.31' spec is correct. That is very close to the 15.86" listed in Alway's dimensional drawing.
(1.31' = 15.72").
 
Thank you guys for digging deeper. Looks like my linked site is incorrect and Estes is incorrect. A 3" 29mm DK2 would be quite a fun project. Might get 1kg empty with all electrics.
 
LOL Inches, Millimeters, and Kilograms to describe one rocket. I don't know how there could ever be mistakes.
 
GuyNoir said:
You do realize all this material is copyrighted, yes?
Click to expand...

Apparently, in the past, when I whined that my material was being posted with my name cropped out, some people took that as permission to post scans of everything I've ever done, every time someone so much as mentions the name of a rocket I've drawn, so long as they don't crop my name out of the image.

And since everything I draw is being given away by third parties, I've pretty much run out of incentive to draw more. Frankly, I don't have the time and energy to stuff that genie back in the bottle.

It's always extra charming to see a third party that I've never even met being thanked for my work.

Peter Alway
 
I didn't realize until looking closer at the material source. My father is a published historian and I'm a struggling fiction guy and know the problems of maintaining a hold on material once it's out there. I sent a note to the poster about the pics and hopefully they will be kindly removed. The answers I sought were found in earlier responses, and although these very clear and amazingly well done pics were nice to get, even if born out of enthusiasm for rocketry, the actuality is not so good for the actual person who did the hard work digging up source material and spending hours drawing up clear references.

I thank Mr. Alway for his work and efforts. I will have to just pony up and get a copy of the book from ABEbooks or elsewhere, whatever the price. A 5th edition with all of the supplements added in would be a nice final edition and be just done with it, especially during all of the current space activity. But a final project like that is huge.

So thanks to all who hepled in this. I figured out a DK2 would be an excellent BT-60 gap staged model with 2 x C6's and basswood fins getting a thousand feet. Getting all the excitement. Without needing stage recovery. Getting a completely scale look. Also, a dual 29 or 38mm 1/4 scale DK2 example would also perfectly scale up (chute release only though).

Such are my plans. We will see where they take me.

Thank you everyone.
Thank you very much for your hard work Peter.
Since the answers have been found, I should lock the thread soon.
 
PeterAlway said:
It's always extra charming to see a third party that I've never even met being thanked for my work.

Peter Alway
Click to expand...

Peter,

I have never attempted to "take credit" for your work and never will. You are clearly identified on the items posted. With that said, I have seen, in other locations, material posted that I know is yours, but your name was removed from the items.

As for my being thanked, that was only for posting pertinent information and, in no way, did I ever claim it to be my own.

Without a doubt, you are the most prolific source of scale data available, ever. Rocketeers, worldwide, owe you a debt of gratitude. You have created a "legacy" through your efforts.

Dave F.
 
Peter, I wondered why your drawings were being posted around here everywhere. I just figured you must have given people permission somehow. Sounds like not.

As for incentive to draw more, I'd love to purchase a copy of ROTW but honestly it's been out of print as long as I've been in rocketry, so not sure what I'm supposed to do.
 
micro said:
As for incentive to draw more, I'd love to purchase a copy of ROTW but honestly it's been out of print as long as I've been in rocketry, so not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Click to expand...

Photocopies of the supplements are available through NARTS . . . All 6 of them will cost you $108.00, plus shipping. Back when the ROTW book was available, the cost was $30.00, plus shipping, but, unfortunately, there are no more copies available from them.

https://blastzone.org/nar/narts/store.asp?groupid=1080035015601

Copies of ROTW come up for sale, from time to time, but be prepared to pay a premium price for them !

https://www.alibris.com/Rockets-of-the-World-A-Modelers-Guide-Peter-Alway/book/5788155?matches=12
 
Last edited:
PeterAlway said:
<snip> Frankly, I don't have the time and energy to stuff that genie back in the bottle.

Peter Alway
Click to expand...
<snip>

I've been looking at Peter's drawings for years and I can see the effort and devotion that has gone into them.

I asked recently in this forum about the R-1 roll pattern. Peter watched the linked video, worked out the roll pattern, drew it and posted it here.

Peter Alway. :eek:

Took the time to do something for me (and others). I don't know him, except through his work. :D

I'm still stunned.

This hobby can't thank Peter enough for his contributions.

I'm emailing the Vatican to suggest a sainthood.
 
Posting the copyrighted material is wrong.

However, I’m not sure how paying a scaler 10x the price helps Peter at all.

I have not done much research but there are print on demand services like by amazon that may improve the availability of these valuable resource.
 
To All,

I have just sent this email . . . Whether he chooses to respond by email or by posting to this forum, I eagerly await his reply.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************

To PETER ALWAY,

Since Rockets of the World is long out of print and a 5th edition does not appear to be coming, I formally request permission to post scale data created by you, available to all, without charge.

You will always be credited as the creator & source of all material. I make this request in the interest of making scale data widely available to Rocketeers and in the hopes of increasing interest in Scale Modelling.

The tremendous amount of data you have amassed should not be "lost to the ages", nor should Rocketeers be compelled to pay exorbitant amounts to those who are "scalping" your literary work online.

I hope that you will give this serious consideration, Peter . . . I look forward to hearing from you !

Respectfully,

Dave F.
 
Dave,

That's not how IP works. I love to build scale too and I understand your frustration at access to data, but Peter's books are not the same thing as getting drawings from manufacturers. Peter and his family will have a financial right to those copyrighted drawings (which are his original work product) that could extend up to 100 years from original publication. I work in IP. PM me and we can discuss it.
 
MarkB. said:
Dave,

That's not how IP works. I love to build scale too and I understand your frustration at access to data, but Peter's books are not the same thing as getting drawings from manufacturers. Peter and his family will have a financial right to those copyrighted drawings (which are his original work product) that could extend up to 100 years from original publication. I work in IP. PM me and we can discuss it.
Click to expand...

Mark

You should have contacted me, via PM, in the first place, then.

Dave F.
 
Ez2cDave said:
Photocopies of the supplements are available through NARTS . . . All 6 of them will cost you $108.00, plus shipping. Back when the ROTW book was available, the cost was $30.00, plus shipping, but, unfortunately, there are no more copies available from them.
Click to expand...

None of that justifies the theft and sharing of copyrighted material that does not belong to you, Dave. Pull the post with the stolen drawings down.

I happen to know that Peter has been working on a 5th Edition of ROTW for several years now. In a post above, Peter said "I've pretty much run out of incentive to draw more." If that 5th Edition never sees the light of day, it will be because of people like you, Dave.

James
 
Please report any schematics that are not public domain that show up here. We don't need them, and the very most should be a link to where they can LEGALLY be obtained.
 
James,

Since it is Peter Alway's material, let him speak for himself . . .

If he ever does create a 5th edition of ROTW, including all of the Supplements, I hope that it is in electronic format, which would be much more convenient and cost-effective, in the 21st Century.

Dave F.
 
The following are available on USB drive from the NAR.

https://blastzone.org/nar/narts/store.asp?groupid=1080035015601

14 U.S. Army Missiles Of The Cold War USB Drive
12 Soviet Missiles Of The Cold War USB Drive
Rockets Of The World 1999 Supplement USB Drive
Rockets Of The World 2000 Supplement USB Drive
Rockets Of The World 2001 Supplement USB Drive
Rockets Of The World 2002 Supplement USB Drive
Rockets Of The World 2003 Supplement USB Drive
Rockets Of The World 2004 Supplement USB Drive
Scale Bash USB Drive https://blastzone.org/nar/narts/store.asp?groupid=12720058171961

In addition, NAR members can download a digital copy of Peter's The Art of Scale Model Rocketry for free in the Member's Resources section of the NAR website.


The following are available in print form from ARA Press.

https://www.arapress.com/saturn-press/

14 U.S. Army Missiles Of The Cold War
12 Soviet Missiles Of The Cold War
Rockets Of The World 1999 Supplement
Rockets Of The World 2000 Supplement
Rockets Of The World 2001 Supplement
Rockets Of The World 2002 Supplement
Rockets Of The World 2003 Supplement
Rockets Of The World 2004 Supplement



The following are available in print form eRockets.

The First Seven Centuries of Rocketry
https://www.erockets.biz/book-the-first-seven-centuries-of-rocketry-by-peter-alway/

Eighteen Rockets and Missiles of World War II
https://www.erockets.biz/book-eighteen-rockets-and-missiles-of-world-war-ii-by-peter-alway/


Rockets of the World can be found at:
https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?...eter%20alway&title=rockets%20of%20the%20world

or

https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?...%20of%20the%20world%20a%20modeler%27s%20guide
 
Intellectual property in the digital/internet age is a big deal. So here's how it works, if you have one of Peter's books:

1) You can make a copy of a drawing and scribble all over it with your notes;

2) You can make a scan or blow it up to full size for your project so you have fin patterns and such;

3) Peter has expressly authorized a copy for the specific use as scale documentation in a NAR scale competition.

But,

you cannot give a copy of the drawing to someone else. Giving a copy to someone else (even one person) is called a republication and it is prohibited by federal copyright law. Both the republisher and the site which permitted the republication have violated the law.

Even if you do it for free.

Even if you can't find a copy of the book.

Even if you really, really want to give it to someone.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

S
1/2 Scale AQM-37A Jayhawk
Replies
25
Views
2K
sambatterman
S
J
Need Suggestions for Rebuilding a Estes 1:100 Apollo Saturn V #1969 (Long)
Replies
8
Views
1K
JPalmer621
J
A
Where to post spreadsheets for body tube and centering ring dimensions?
Replies
10
Views
637
kjhambrick
K
S
1/2 Scale Orbital Sciences GCQ 163 "Coyote" - Level 3 Certification Build
Replies
11
Views
1K
sambatterman
S
Back_at_it
Estes Yankee Upscale Build
Replies
17
Views
988
Theory
Theory

Latest posts

Back
Top