Don't Call It A Bottle Rocket, 'Cause Some Folks Will Go Nuts

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(BTW, in 'fireworks' stick rockets, it's been shown that you can replace one long stick with multiple shorter sticks, and get the same stability.)
Tractor Motors Rule!*

*I'm Channeling My Inner @Daddyisabar
Indeed.
Perhaps if you had called it a "dowel finned rocket" instead of a bottle or stick rocket there might not have been such a kerfuffle?
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Sputnik looks cross eyed? Cool birds @kuririn, well done.
Credit goes to Odd'l Rockets and Custom Rockets for those birds.
And let us not forget the first "model rocket", the Rock a Chute Mark 1 by Orville Carlisle.
Pencil-Rockachute Comparison.jpg


I would call that a tractor motored stick rocket (with fins).
 
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bjphoenix

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I am not allowed to fly a real Nike Apache
Wow, do you have one?
First, it would require a pretty high waiver.


I modeled it and Open Rocket says it's stable. If you shorten the stick, you can see it become unstable.
I mocked it up and swing tested it, it's not marginally stable, it's rock solid stable.
There are numerous video's of them flying, straight as an arrow.
Why does it work.... Ancient Chinese Secret
I've been working on model rockets for a long time and I've occasionally wondered about "stick rockets". My theory to myself is that the CG of the rocket is behind the motor, so the thrust of the motor maintains its directional stability. My recollection of this type of rocket that you can buy in July is that it has thrust for its entire flight, which makes it directionally stable for its entire flight. A model rocket only has thrust for part of its flight, the rest of the time it is coasting and requires aerodynamic stability for this part of the flight. It is interesting to hear that with the single small/long fin it can be aerodynamically stable. I wasn't sure myself.
 

Steve Shannon

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Indeed.
Perhaps if you had called it a "dowel finned rocket" instead of a bottle or stick rocket there might not have been such a kerfuffle?
It gets confusing sometimes. Here’s what NFPA 1127 says:

1.3.6. This code shall not apply to the following:
(1) Model rockets as specified in NFPA 1122
(2) Fireworks rockets, skyrockets, and rockets with sticks as defined in NFPA 1123 or NFPA 1126.

So, today I’ll look up 1123 and 1126 (both of which regulate commercial fireworks, not consumer fireworks.)

However, just for the record, I am not strictly against them. I’m somewhere in the middle and trying to provide factual information regarding existing regulations.
I think it’s possible to have certain stick rockets that are indeed model rockets and interesting, and I’m also concerned that flying stick rockets could be done irresponsibly such that claiming they are model rockets would appear to be an attempt to bypass prohibitions against fireworks. If casual observers believe they are just fireworks the damage is done. So I wouldn’t simply go to a public park and fly stick rockets, but I would allow them at a club launch.
 

lakeroadster

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It gets confusing sometimes. Here’s what NFPA 1127 says:

1.3.6. This code shall not apply to the following:
(1) Model rockets as specified in NFPA 1122
(2) Fireworks rockets, skyrockets, and rockets with sticks as defined in NFPA 1123 or NFPA 1126.

So, today I’ll look up 1123 and 1126 (both of which regulate commercial fireworks, not consumer fireworks.)

However, just for the record, I am not strictly against them. I’m somewhere in the middle and trying to provide factual information regarding existing regulations.
I think it’s possible to have certain stick rockets that are indeed model rockets and interesting, and I’m also concerned that flying stick rockets could be done irresponsibly such that claiming they are model rockets would appear to be an attempt to bypass prohibitions against fireworks. If casual observers believe they are just fireworks the damage is done. So I wouldn’t simply go to a public park and fly stick rockets, but I would allow them at a club launch.
It get's confusing, because none of the codes you are referencing apply to the topic at hand.

NFPA 1127 is the "Code for High Power Rocketry". That doesn't apply.

Definition of fireworks.. a class of low explosive pyrotechnic devices.

Unless I don't load an Estes E motor into my stick rocket, the likelihood of it "exploding" is pretty slim.

NFPA 1123 is the "Code for Fireworks Display", so that doesn't apply, our model rockets are not fireworks, as defined above.

NFPA 1126 is the "Standard for the Use of Pyrotechnics Before a Proximate Audience" that also doesn't apply.
 

Steve Shannon

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It get's confusing, because none of the codes you are referencing apply to the topic at hand.

NFPA 1127 is the "Code for High Power Rocketry". That doesn't apply.

Definition of fireworks.. a class of low explosive pyrotechnic devices.

Unless I don't load an Estes E motor into my stick rocket, the likelihood of it "exploding" is pretty slim.

NFPA 1123 is the "Code for Fireworks Display", so that doesn't apply, our model rockets are not fireworks, as defined above.

NFPA 1126 is the "Standard for the Use of Pyrotechnics Before a Proximate Audience" that also doesn't apply.
NFPA 1122 doesn’t have any rules regarding rockets with sticks. They are mentioned in the annex, but that doesn’t equate to a regulation.
 

beeblebrox

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Now, this is truly a bottle rocket! You might get more performance with diet coke and mentos...

1638634998849.png
 

Dotini

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On my range box I have big The Rocketry Forum (and Estes) decals. If I taped an Estes motor to a stick with a streamer on it and launched it in a public park which allows model rockets and prohibits fireworks, could I honestly claim my stick rocket is a model rocket per The Rocketry Forum, Estes, and the NAR Safety Code pledge I signed to abide by? Could we do a poll or consult the management of the forum and/or NAR? Or is it better to seek forgiveness rather than permission?
 

lakeroadster

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On my range box I have big The Rocketry Forum (and Estes) decals. If I taped an Estes motor to a stick with a streamer on it and launched it in a public park which allows model rockets and prohibits fireworks, could I honestly claim my stick rocket is a model rocket per The Rocketry Forum, Estes, and the NAR Safety Code pledge I signed to abide by? Could we do a poll or consult the management of the forum and/or NAR? Or is it better to seek forgiveness rather than permission?
The bottle rocket I have designed, shown above, is no more a "firework" than every model rocket being sold today is a "firework".

It meets each of the codes you referenced.
 

bjphoenix

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On my range box I have big The Rocketry Forum (and Estes) decals. If I taped an Estes motor to a stick with a streamer on it and launched it in a public park which allows model rockets and prohibits fireworks, could I honestly claim my stick rocket is a model rocket per The Rocketry Forum, Estes, and the NAR Safety Code pledge I signed to abide by? Could we do a poll or consult the management of the forum and/or NAR? Or is it better to seek forgiveness rather than permission?
Something that hasn't been mentioned but which would probably be important to the casual observer- where did the rocket come from. If you bought it from a place that sells various other fireworks, then it would be lumped in with them. If you bought the hobby parts at a hobby shop or online retailer that sells hobby rockets and hobby parts, it would be easy to say that it is a model rocket just like any other but with unusual design elements. If you had some leftover actual fireworks, peeled off the stick, glued on some balsa fins and painted it all, you would still have a hard time convincing anyone that it was a model rocket.
 

Dotini

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Something that hasn't been mentioned but which would probably be important to the casual observer- where did the rocket come from. If you bought it from a place that sells various other fireworks, then it would be lumped in with them. If you bought the hobby parts at a hobby shop or online retailer that sells hobby rockets and hobby parts, it would be easy to say that it is a model rocket just like any other but with unusual design elements. If you had some leftover actual fireworks, peeled off the stick, glued on some balsa fins and painted it all, you would still have a hard time convincing anyone that it was a model rocket.
I feel very privileged being able to drive 10 minutes to a manicured field, 500' x 500', where I can launch rockets, make loud noises and stinking smoke. To maintain this privilege, I try to be the best possible exemplar and ambassador of model rocketry that it is is possible for me to be. I carry extra Estes catalogs in my range box, and hand them out to interested bystanders.
 

lakeroadster

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Something that hasn't been mentioned but which would probably be important to the casual observer- where did the rocket come from.
How would a casual observer know where you bought stuff from? Why would that be important to a "casual" observer? Maybe a police officer, or somebody on the fire department, but why would a casual observer care?

If you bought it from a place that sells various other fireworks, then it would be lumped in with them. If you bought the hobby parts at a hobby shop or online retailer that sells hobby rockets and hobby parts, it would be easy to say that it is a model rocket just like any other but with unusual design elements.
I've never purchased fireworks, or been to a place that sells them. Do they sell model rockets at a place that sells fireworks?

If you had some leftover actual fireworks, peeled off the stick, glued on some balsa fins and painted it all, you would still have a hard time convincing anyone that it was a model rocket.
Why would anybody try to disguise fireworks as rockets? I mean, don't all fireworks explode? I mean, isn't that the point? How would you disguise the fact that it blows up once you light it?
 

lakeroadster

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Now, this is truly a bottle rocket! You might get more performance with diet coke and mentos...

View attachment 492560
I'm pretty sure the Chinese get squatters rights on the term "Bottle Rocket".

The earliest fireworks came from China during the Song dynasty (960–1279).

You can bet they had pottery bottles back then, but you can also bet they didn't have Diet Coke and Mentos back then.
 

lakeroadster

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Credit goes to Odd'l Rockets and Custom Rockets for those birds.
And let us not forget the first "model rocket", the Rock a Chute Mark 1 by Orville Carlisle.
View attachment 492508

I would call that a tractor motored stick rocket (with fins).
Very interesting @kuririn ... thanks for posting this. From Orville Carlisle's Wiki page, it seems G. Harry Stine thought this rocket was merely an extension of fireworks technology...

"G. Harry Stine, in an article published posthumously in Sport Rocketry magazine, wrote that the U.S. Patent Office should not have awarded Carlisle the patent because the design merely represented a reasonable extension of existing fireworks technology."
 

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