Don't Call It A Bottle Rocket, 'Cause Some Folks Will Go Nuts

[lakeroadster]

There are a couple of video's on You Tube of people making these bottle rockets using home made motors.

They appear to be C-size and D-size motors and they fly straight and true. I'd link to those video's here, but that's verbotten.

 

[CalebJ]

What's forbidden about linking videos?

 

[kuririn]

If you are exploring the use of a stick as a stabilizer just for the novelty of it. then go for it.
It will work depending on the length/weight of the stick.
Of course fins will do it with less weight and more efficiently.
BTW here's a pic of a couple of Indian rockets used against the British circa late 1700s.
Apparently sword blades were sometimes used also.

It is probably the genesis for Congreve's improved designs.

 

[Steve Shannon]

There’s nothing in the Tripoli Safety Codes against bottle rockets, but some fire codes specifically name them as fireworks.
I would have no problem as long as they have a recovery system and it is launched to curve away from the flight line. I suspect a bottle rocket will always try to turn in the direction of the stick because of off-center center of mass.

 

[OverTheTop]

So I'd probably make the stick longer, and I'd definitely swing test it.

Stick longer is definitely worth doing to be on the safe side.

They appear to be C-size and D-size motors and they fly straight and true. I'd link to those video's here, but that's verbotten.

Why such videos forbidden?

 

[tim cubbedge]

I'd link to those video's here, but that's verbotten.

Are explicitly describing formulas for motor? If not then I don’t see the harm in posting.

 

[lakeroadster]

I sent you the links @CalebJ @OverTheTop @timbucktoo

The Rocketry Forum, Propulsion Forum, rules states: Research, Experimental, and Homemade Motor Topics: These topics are reserved for our Research forum

I'm a bit gun shy I guess? The fella that got banned on Facebook replied to the video with "Sugar motors.. I hope you blow your nose off!"

I've never flown anything but Estes BP motors ... but the video's show super straight flights of this bottle rocket design "rocket".

 

[jqavins]

Are explicitly describing formulas for motor? If not then I don’t see the harm in posting.

The formulas or the construction design/methods. But just watching them fly is no problem.

 

[lakeroadster]

The formulas or the construction design/methods. But just watching them fly is no problem.

In this case, the video is entitled "How to make sugar motors" ... so it's verboten on this forum.

It does however have some arrow straight flight examples of "bottle rocket style rocket designs".

 

[Orien]

I read the title of this thread as "Don't call it a MODEL rocket 'Cause some folks will go nuts" and came here to vehemently defend the stance that a supersonic-capable dual deploy high-power rocket isn't a "model" in any way, shape, or form. Then I was going to challenge anyone who said otherwise to a fight. Glad we cleared that up...

 

[lakeroadster]

I read the title of this thread as "Don't call it a MODEL rocket 'Cause some folks will go nuts" and came here to vehemently defend the stance that a supersonic-capable dual deploy high-power rocket isn't a "model" in any way, shape, or form. Then I was going to challenge anyone who said otherwise to a fight. Glad we cleared that up...

Well, that's the SOP when it comes to the written word.... ya gotta read it, 'cause it sure won't talk to you*.

*(Unless there's an "App" for that)

 

[icyclops]

Actually, a troll called Chris Michaels and idiot and I followed up with calling the troll an idiot. Don't remember the trolls name but definitely wasn't @lakeroadster.

I posted that I wouldn't mind making a "BR" rocket in spite of whomever keeps calling the cops on us for setting off fireworks in the park. As we witnessed at our night launch last week, there's a lot of aerials being set off in the neighborhood. The difference being that ours would be sanctioned.

Speaking of bottle rockets...

I guess you guys have a lot of time on your hands calling everyone an idiot on FB…wish I had that much time

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I guess you guys have a lot of time on your hands calling everyone an idiot on FB…wish I had that much time

But you have time to make snarky comments here?

 

[Greg Furtman]

I'm really "rabid" against fireworks. I'd like to see the sale of them banned except for professional displays.

The psychological damage they do to animals and folks with PTSD, not to mention the chance of wildfires, makes the sale of them a non-starter. States ban the sales of them, yet look the other way when they are used. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I have two dogs and live in the countryside. But there are those who have cabins in the area who are from the Minneapolis/St Paul area who think it is perfectly fine to be shooting off fireworks out here in the country.

 

[cbwho]

I think the rocket design mentioned would be illegal in state that I reside.

I honestly believe it's a bit of a troll design. It is most likely built to intentionally provoke. I suspect you'll reject that but nonetheless that it what I suspect.

 

[lakeroadster]

I think the rocket design mentioned would be illegal in state that I reside.

I honestly believe it's a bit of a troll design. It is most likely built to intentionally provoke. I suspect you'll reject that but nonetheless that it what I suspect.

Your post is typical of social media. It assumes the writer has the worst intent.

A guy on the Facebook site wrote "Has anybody ever just glued a nose cone and fins to an Estes D motor and flown it"? The discussion continued around what is the most basic rocket that could be built, that met NRA rules.

That's when I waded in with the bottle rocket design. It's easy to build, you could build and fly it in a 10 minute period using masking tape.

It's the exact opposite of what you state, it's not to troll or provoke. It's to focus on making a simple yet safe rocket that is a good performer.

 

[cbwho]

My last post on this subject. As the ongoing "gain of function" research fall out illustrates sometimes certain things should not be pursued.

You might not know why you are pursuing this ("choice blindness") or might not be fully aware be of the "optics" of it and the potential greater harm to the hobby.

So regardless of your own personal perspective of "good intentions", many others including myself, do not see "good outcomes".

 

[boatgeek]

A way to resolve about 80% of the concerns raised so far would be to use 2 sticks, on opposite sides of the motor. You could probably shorten the sticks as well. Yes, it would add to costs, but it would then be symmetrical and wouldn't be quite so in-your-face about looking like a bottle rocket. A nose cone on the body tube would help too.

Yes, these are purely about optics and not really about the function of the rocket. Yes, you "should" be able to fly the original design at any club launch as long as it has an effective recovery system, but let's be real that biases exist beyond the law.

 

[jqavins]

I've been using the term "stick rocket" quite deliberately and after due consideration. Ancient rockets and fireworks alike have used such designs since, well, antiquity. Fireworks are manufactured, sold (or not sold) and used (or not used) under one set of laws and regulations, and model rockets and their engines under different ones.

This is not a firework; it's not a bottle rocket. It's a model rocket.

I'm quite confident that this is legal anywhere that other model rockets are legal, so long as it follows the laws and regulations applicable thereto. It's stable (or will be made so) it has a recovery device, is uses a certified engine with total propellant and thrust within limits, etc., etc. Go ahead and fly it.

 

[beeblebrox]

The biggest issue with stick rockets is that it it very important the stick is straight or you will get a very curvy flight! I actually saw someone use a very beautifully polished stick rocket at a NAR competition over 40 years ago. I think the model placed. It was flown in C Altitude if memory serves. It flew perfectly straight. The motor pod was about 6" Bt-20 with streamer recovery.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

Yeah none of the odd-roc haters in FB commented on my reply w/ OR simulation showing how an E-engine with fin and nose cone attached (or attached to minimum diameter body tube that is the same length as an E-engine) could be made stable and even incorporate a recovery system. I think main posts kept getting deleted...

 

[BigMacDaddy]

If you put a launch tower inside a huge bottle does that make all your rockets into bottle rockets?

 

[jqavins]

If you put a launch tower inside a huge bottle does that make all your rockets into bottle rockets?

View attachment 492248

Uuuhh, maybe?

 

[Steve Shannon]

I've been using the term "stick rocket" quite deliberately and after due consideration. Ancient rockets and fireworks alike have used such designs since, well, antiquity. Fireworks are manufactured, sold (or not sold) and used (or not used) under one set of laws and regulations, and model rockets and their engines under different ones.

This is not a firework; it's not a bottle rocket. It's a model rocket.

I'm quite confident that this is legal anywhere that other model rockets are legal, so long as it follows the laws and regulations applicable thereto. It's stable (or will be made so) it has a recovery device, is uses a certified engine with total propellant and thrust within limits, etc., etc. Go ahead and fly it.

The problem is that the government identifies stick rockets as fireworks:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/chapter-II/subchapter-C/part-1507

which could be applied by some AHJs in locations where model rockets are permitted but fireworks are prohibited.

 

[OverTheTop]

This is not a firework; it's not a bottle rocket. It's a model rocket.

This ^^^. It is a model of a firework stick rocket, but finessed to have acceptable performance and behaviour in our hobby. I am not allowed to fly a real Nike Apache (would probably really annoy someone downrange as there is no recovery gear) but I am allowed to fly a model Nike Apache because it is safe. We are not letting these off out of bottles in our backyard. We are launching them from pads in allocated airspace and with relevant safety distances/procedures.

 

[jqavins]

The problem is that the government identifies stick rockets as fireworks:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/chapter-II/subchapter-C/part-1507

which could be applied by some AHJs in locations where model rockets are permitted but fireworks are prohibited.

Hmm, I see ambiguity. I don't have anything like the expertise to answer that, though it certainly gives me doubt I did not previously have.

I read this to mean that there are fireworks consisting of rockets with sticks, and such fireworks must abide by the rule given. But I don't see it saying that all rockets with sticks are fireworks.

You probably have much more of the experience needed to interpret this correctly than I do.

 

[boatgeek]

Hmm, I see ambiguity. I don't have anything like the expertise to answer that, though it certainly gives me doubt I did not previously have.

I read this to mean that there are fireworks consisting of rockets with sticks, and such fireworks must abide by the rule given. But I don't see it saying that all rockets with sticks are fireworks.

You probably have much more of the experience needed to interpret this correctly than I do.

That's how I read it too, but lots of weird stuff happens when people start reading CFRs. I could see local officials interpreting it the way that @Steve Shannon does.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Hmm, I see ambiguity. I don't have anything like the expertise to answer that, though it certainly gives me doubt I did not previously have.

I read this to mean that there are fireworks consisting of rockets with sticks, and such fireworks must abide by the rule given. But I don't see it saying that all rockets with sticks are fireworks.

You probably have much more of the experience needed to interpret this correctly than I do.

I wouldn’t assume that! You could be right. I think that the presence of a working recovery system would go a long way towards proving that it’s a model rocket rather than a firework. If a person simply attached a motor to a stick I would be more inclined to think of it as a firework.

Like a lot of things it would probably never matter unless something bad happens. Then the government will look for anything they can find.

 

[Jimmy Wilson]

I was at a launch in Oklahoma years ago and some yahoo duct-taped a broomstick to a large unknown motor and proceeded to launch it under the cover of darkness. We were camped out and it caused some excitement that night. There was some intense interrogation the next morning, but the culprit was never found out.

 

[icyclops]

But you have time to make snarky comments here?

Yes, as I do not spend all day roaming FB….this is one of the few forums I attend